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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kevin_Energy |
Hey everybody. 2007 has certainly been a hectic year in many ways. There’s been some great happenings and some down right frustrating happenings. I’ve kept quiet about most things for a while but I feel now it’s time to speak out about a few issues both in-house to the N.E.C and more importantly to the scene in general. There’s a lot to say so I will keep it as brief as possible.
I’ll stick to the in house news first. At the end of 2006 the old store could no longer be developed as the creator had moved on in life and built it in a way that no other developer could add to it. On top of that I had lots of plans for simplifying yet expanding the general N.E.C site.
I worked hard on a draft for the new and now live store www.hardbeatstore.com keeping it separate from the N.E.C site so I could keep the focus of N.E.C to representing artists and music. I handed both drafts to my developer who assured me they would be ready for Christmas 2006. To cut a long story short I was completely messed around by the developer. Heading into March 2007 I was still being flooded with excuses and promises that both sites would be ready that week. Week in week out the same promises and excuses completely frustrated our day to day running as our old server became increasingly slower and un-updatable.
The new store www.hardbeatstore.com ended up going live 90% complete as the old store / server could no longer function. This also meant taking down the N.E.C community site but I was assured that both the store fixes and new N.E.C site would be complete that week. This did not happen and I was lead into the same trap of excuses and promises like before.
I ended up taking a management decision to hire a new and much more professional team to take on the work. It was easier said then done seeing as the original developer took offense to this and threatened to lock me out of my own server.
The store database is currently being built 100% from scratch. Due to the over complicated procedures used by the previous developer this was the best option. The same goes for the NEC site. Both are making great and much faster progress and I really can’t wait to be back on track. The current live hardbeatstore.com still offers you great and upfront music but the updated new version will be much smoother and user friendly.
The truth is that while being plagued down with these troubles, the N.E.C is actually firing productively and as positive than ever before in both the Hardcore and Harddance scenes. Our Freeformation and Elevate CDs have had an awesome response. We have some great artists from around the globe that are all coming into their own like; S3rl, Technikal, SQ, Arkitech, Hoopz, Synthwolf + many more, plus not forgetting Sharkey being on top form with his album tracks and our rave night Freeformation completely taking off like we could have never expected. The dancefloors are alive and creating great energy all around the globe. Just imagine how much more we could have made of all this with our completed community site pulling together both the artists and punters alike. I’m happy that our re-launch is just around the corner but very frustrated at how much we’ve been let down by not reaching the full potential of where we had planned everything to be at. Unfortunately the worst hit project was our www.nuenergyusa.com plans that have currently had to be completely put on hold till the site can represent it in full form. Simon and Angela in the USA put a lot of effort into what could be a great portal to the USA and the only set back was the main frame site structure.
So I hope this brings you all up to speed about what’s happened and what you can expect. I hope 2008 to be the year that the artists of the N.E.C can have the representation and respect that they deserve and I personally can’t wait to have more spare time to write music rather then solve office conundrums!
Now moving onto the scene in general…and this is very important indeed. The success of any artist in our scene relies on your support. One key factor is having a huge effect on the whole industry. An effect so huge that it has had a hand in bankrupting one of the biggest distributors for hard dance and hardcore vinyl as well as bankrupting one of the best and most respected album companies. Both Amato Distribution and Resist Music are no longer trading. What does this mean…..? No more worldwide distribution for vinyl singles from a previously trusted and tight outlet and no more great + timeless albums released from Resist…like Bonkers, Hardcore Heaven and many more. Sure a new solution may be found but the knock on effect of this to the N.E.C and other small independent labels is huge to say the least and the overall effect to the industry is even bigger.
It’s easy to pin a number of reasons to the fall of these companies but the main and real effect that is causing the most damage IMO is file sharing. 90% of the people reading this would have at some point copied a CD from a friend, accepted a track via MSN, uploaded / downloaded a file to a peer to peer site or found some other way to share / accept music from somebody. It’s easy to think…. ‘ah this one copy won’t hurt’ or ‘they must sell loads so what difference is this going to make’ The truth is our scene is much smaller then you think. 12” single sales are barely high enough to warrant manufacturing in the first place. Download sales are extremely low and are a long way from replacing actual 12” sales. Last week I released two exclusive tracks on our N.E.C digital labels. After selling just 6 of each they were up on file sharing sites for the world to download. This is not support but blatant robbery from artists and labels that have so much to offer long term if given the chance. This has to stop right away and a level of respect among these sharers needs to be reached.
After the fall of Amato and Resist I’m now forced to completely re think the operation of the N.E.C. After the 2007 web troubles it’s the last task I’d like to be faced with but I have no choice. There’s no doubt I’ll find a solution as I’m not ready to hand it all in and be beaten yet. I know there’s so much potential out there but if the scene carries on as it is my business and others alike will be gone and buried. It’s certainly no joke anymore and a reality that I hope can be avoided with some level- thinking by all.
Taking the above into consideration there will no longer be N.E.C artists or music appearing on CD packs until there has been a solid way to route some income from them back to the featured artists + music. A plan for this is being discussed.
We can only continue offering great music if the support and love for it is shown back. We are not pop stars with huge offices and payrolls. We are underground, taking risks with fresh ideas and sounds, creating a buzz for new talent and keeping our scene progressing so we can enjoy it for years to come…..But for how much longer..? It’s in your hands.
|
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin_Energy:
It’s easy to pin a number of reasons to the fall of these companies but the main and real effect that is causing the most damage IMO is file sharing. 90% of the people reading this would have at some point copied a CD from a friend, accepted a track via MSN, uploaded / downloaded a file to a peer to peer site or found some other way to share / accept music from somebody.
and 90% of said readers will deny that, considering this site is as anti-piracy as you can get I keep getting warned for saying it (and this).
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin_Energy:
12” single sales are barely high enough to warrant manufacturing in the first place. Download sales are extremely low and are a long way from replacing actual 12” sales.
And trying to compare Vinyl sales to Digital sales are horrid. Hardcore still (what I've noticed) orbits around DJ's buying the music, not listeners (like most other genres)
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin_Energy:
Taking the above into consideration there will no longer be N.E.C artists or music appearing on CD packs until there has been a solid way to route some income from them back to the featured artists + music. A plan for this is being discussed.
You consider fileharing the worse problem, but in the end, someone actualyl bought a track to fileshare it, but with cd packs, you never got the money |
| Audio X |
There are a whole lot of valid points in your post, Kevin. However, I think that the solution isn't to try and stop the pirates (because we all know that that has become entirely impossible) but rather to change the way our scene operates.
Hardcore relies far too much on 12" vinyl sales. It is a DJ-lead scene that really isn't all that accomodating to average listeners. Things like Bonkers, Hardcore Heaven, etc. have really been the key to selling the music to the average punters. Your Freeformation albums seem to be going in the right direction in that respect, so kudos to you on that one. We're making some progress at least.
At the same time, that's not enough, however, because they're not openly available except to people "in the know"... you know?
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes, along with downloadable versions of the albums. That way you reach out to a listener-base that is statistically more likely to buy the music in a digital format as well as gain massive exposure in the process.
My 2p |
| Pope C XXIII |
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
There are a whole lot of valid points in your post, Kevin. However, I think that the solution isn't to try and stop the pirates (because we all know that that has become entirely impossible) but rather to change the way our scene operates.
Hardcore relies far too much on 12" vinyl sales. It is a DJ-lead scene that really isn't all that accomodating to average listeners. Things like Bonkers, Hardcore Heaven, etc. have really been the key to selling the music to the average punters. Your Freeformation albums seem to be going in the right direction in that respect, so kudos to you on that one. We're making some progress at least.
At the same time, that's not enough, however, because they're not openly available except to people "in the know"... you know?
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes, along with downloadable versions of the albums. That way you reach out to a listener-base that is statistically more likely to buy the music in a digital format as well as gain massive exposure in the process.
My 2p
Audio-X definitely has it right. Just look at how successful more radio edit/album based groups in house music like Justice, Hot Chip, or Simian Mobile Disco are (and how many groups are flourishing in a scene with some really rapidly growing support) . Hardcore's definitely having a problem with restricting itself to a DJ driven business model and restricting the sound to only appeal to fans, rather than branching out and letting in new converts. |
| Future_Shock |
It just makes me sick and disappointed that we have to come up with a strategy to keep the scene moving forward. Its just so depressing.
That being said, im the most passionate person i know in regards to Hardcore. I have been responsible for file sharing in the past - thats how i learnt about Hardcore - by accidently downloading Angel Eyes. Being a producer now and trying to get a name for myself in production i think it would be blatantly hypocritical of me to file share.
But thats the point. I started producing 6 months into listening to Hardcore and thats the time i decided i wouldnt file share. I had to be involved with the sounds of the scene to stop filesharing. Before you ask, yes it does make me feel ashamed of myself and yes i regret it and would change it all if i could but whats done is done. I now encourage everyone i know not to fileshare and in some cases where they have, ive actually bought the tunes they wanted for them. Im blatantly against it.
Everything that has been said previously is correct - the scene is focused too much on the DJ's and not the listeners. We all know that. But the problem is - how do we stop it? No matter what we do there is always going to be file sharing. Thats something we can't eliminate. It jsut sucks that for a scene so small we can't support ourselves when this is going on. This is what makes me so angry when people bitch about Hardcore going commercial. To me, making Hardcore available to a MUCH larger audience IS the only way to keep the scene alive. It needs a much larger and stronger fan base of people that will buy the tunes and CDs. Hardcore can't live on vinyl sales anymore. Its time to move forward.
That being said, everyone who i afraid of hardcore going commercial shouldn't be. Look at all the producers who have kept with the scene through the dark times and kept the idea alive when everybody else abandoned it. Do you think these producers will blatantly leave the 'underground' attitude of hardcore and go straight to producing commercial stuff? **** no! Sure more commercial tunes will come out, but those producers who were there for these kind of dark times will still make they Hardcore THEY want to hear - which is the stuff we all love now.
Kev Energy, Sharkey, Brisk and Ham and many others will be with Hardcore until they die (no pun intended). IMO, this is the time where we need to learn from the mistakes of the past so we dont have another repeat of '99, '00.
I have too many thoughts to put on paper to add to this and this reply is already pretty long so ill just leave it at that. |
| silver |
Kev's right CD packs are a joke, the promotor pockets all the money, hard working artists and labels get zero income, when CD packs first arrived on the scene it was magically decided that DJ's were suppose to get an increase in DJ fees in order to be recorded but this has three problems
1. No one actually agreed to this it just came into effect one day.
2. From what I've have heard no DJ has apparently recieved any extra money.
3. If the DJ did agree to be recorded, the DJ is getting the extra money not the artists that made the tunes. Granted the DJ could actually play an entire set of his own tunes but I'm sure that isn't going to happen 99% of the time... well maybe sometimes :p but you see my point. |
| Ravenatic |
It's sad it comes to this TBH. But I purely understand what you say Kev.
But that being said - It would be great if some artists/companies can release tracks more quickly rather than having us to wait up to a year for a track. (AATW for one... Raverbaby for two...)
P.S. I love CD Packs |
| silver |
I might want to add, CD packs are a great idea... just license them. |
| Garedos |
The CD/Tape pack issue is a really difficult one, but I for one would hate to see these dissapear alltogether. Maybe its not beyond the realms of possibility to have to Liscence all tracks used, in the same way they are for albums? This would probably lead to a lot of the smaller promoters not being able to produce the packs and therefore could even lead to either demise of some of these promoters who rely on the extra income to keep running, or hopefully it would lead to consolidation of the promoters, smaller ones joining together to form a small number of larger promoters that can be self susstaining. If the profits from selling the music dont ultimatly at least get shared with the producers of the music then there are fundimental flaws in the way Hardcore buisnesses are run.
I hate to refer to Hardcore as a buisness because for me it always has been a, and has been about passion. But the only way it can surive is if the people involved in creating the scene are making at least a living out of doing so.
One more point im almost scared to post about on here is about Internet radio broadcasts. I have only in the last couple of months been able to listen to HappyHardcore.coms radio shows by getting a set up to record them. I was very suprised to find I could record two hours of the latest and best tunes totally for nothing. Being a new home owner my cash is extreemly short so for the short term future I am have been given the easy choice of not having to buy released albums to get a new hardcore fix.
I admit I dont know what issues there are for broadcasting this music and whether any royltys end up with the producers? In commercial music its a benifit for producers to have thier music played on the radio because this leads to single/album sales. For hardcore this is not viable, as previous posters have said hardcore purchasers want to listen to DJs playing sets, not individual tracks.
In my eyes the way forward is to elevate these broadcasts to higher priority for the distribution of hardcore by getting the biggest names in the buisness to be making the shows, and publicising them in a bigger way, at Raves, all over community web sites, flyers and any other channels to contact the target audience. Then high profile sponsers could be attraracted and revenue recouped, hopefully then with the right rules in place, the producers of the music would get what they rightly deserve and can carry on producing, keeping our scene alive.
Hardcore will never die (Pun Intended), but without the scene as a whole, getting together and looking forward at a modern thechnology led future of distribution, it will become even more of a minorty pastime than it already is. |
| silver |
Garedos: Totally different, HappyHardcore.com radio is 100% fully licensed radio station, every track played on there is paid basically. The license is paid to SoundExchange, a nonprofit organization that collects royalty payments from digital music broadcasters and distributes them to rights holders. SoundExchange is an American company since we broadcast from there, but artist payments make it all over the world.
Back on topic.... promoters shouldn't rely on sales of illegal CD's to fund their parties. It's like a movie theater selling illegal recordings of their movies because they don't have enough customers coming in. While I'm in support for all promotors and events big or small the end don't justify the means.
While hardcore (and music in general) is a passion, it (like everything else) has a money side to it, if any money is to made from a track at least some of it should go to the person that made the track don't you think? |
| Samination |
Who do they actually pay? American/Canadian and British artist, or every single nation's 'RIAA' equal in the world?.
anyways, bull shit Influx... Maybe stopping filesharing/download is a great idea, but saying that you where ashamed of having download it... I have no word for it...
If it wheren't for it, would you have ever heard of hardcore? If so, in the end, would you have put any money into this scene? nuff said.
Not that I'm trying to piss on you, but saying that you hate yourself for have gotten into a scene you propably still like, in a wrong little way.
Back when I got into hardcore, I wouldn't be suprised filesharing actually HELPED spreading hardcore. But today people aren't filesharing for the sake of helping people get into the music... People have become greedy. I wont say that I'm an angel or something (which basicly everyone should know). I wont deny that I still fileshare (take into account that I mostly download Anime), and I'm trying to stop filesharing Hardcore (that's still buyable) |
| Orbit1 |
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
SoundExchange is an American company since we broadcast from there, but artist payments make it all over the world.
Oh does that mean I'm due money then? Thats a first.
|
| Garedos |
Dont take me the wrong was Silver, Im lovin the way I can listen to 4-5 hours of fresh Hardcore every week, I look forward to wednesday so much now! And if money is going back to the artists as a result of us listening to it then we should be doing all we can to spread the word amonst fans to get as many listeners as possible and help increase the royalties.
Maybe I didnt make my point clear enough, I agree 110% that artists should be getting the money made from their products |
| Brainchild |
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes, along with downloadable versions of the albums. That way you reach out to a listener-base that is statistically more likely to buy the music in a digital format as well as gain massive exposure in the process.
I don't think that'll make much difference. Some DJ's and albums already have tracks on iTunes. Most people who buy Ipods and MP3 players don't purchase their music from ITunes, but stick it on illegally from file sharing web sites. Plus each track on Itunes is only 79p which really is at the end of the day means the DJs and labels are getting less money than they would if they sold it on their own web site at £1.99. |
| Ravenatic |
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes
You've obviously not heard about the DRM bollocks then.
DRM is another reason for filesharing. iTunes DRM is crap. Ok its VERY VERY easy to get around it - But not many people know how (It goes with any Audo DRM. Video DRM is different) |
| DarrenJ |
To be truthful, I didnt know much about NEC this year
most of its labels other then the few run by hhc.com members (denile, haze n such), were just up in smoke for myself
lack of a resource (website) effected myself |
| Dain-Ja |
quote:
Totally different, HappyHardcore.com radio is 100% fully licensed radio station, every track played on there is paid basically. The license is paid to SoundExchange, a nonprofit organization that collects royalty payments from digital music broadcasters and distributes them to rights holders. SoundExchange is an American company since we broadcast from there, but artist payments make it all over the world.
I'm confused. Who does the money go to?
I know plenty of people with tunes that play on here that certainly have never gotten a SoundExchange payment.
How do they know which tunes have been played? Or does this money just go to Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake? |
| latininxtc |
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
How do they know which tunes have been played? Or does this money just go to Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake?
I can't believe that someone just mentioned that worthless garbage in this forum. Please keep those pop douches out of this website and anything related to them.
As far as filesharing, that is how I really got into hardcore music. If it wasn't for napster, I would have never discovered it. Yes I am ashamed that i did participate in the filesharing programs, but I do not regret it. That is because I now listen to hardcore exclusively and buy the compilation CDs. I recently got Hardcore Underground 2, Bonkers 17 and Clubland Xtreme hardcore 4.
Yea I know it's bad that I just mentioned that considering that someone recently mentioned that the artists that have songs appearing on these titles do not get any type of royalties on them. But I have trouble finding a good site where I can individually download these songs.
Plus it seems pretty expensive considering that translated into dollars, they cost over 2 dollars here, while the trash on iTunes is less than a dollar. The hardcore songs they have on there are so old they aren't worth looking into purchasing them.
I also wondered why artists don't do any regular albums like trance artists do. I have no problem buying anything that DJ Ham, Dougal, Gammer and Darwin make because I think their styles are so great. I have no problem with the DJ mixes, but I also like hearing the full song as well. |
| Audio X |
quote:
Originally posted by Ravenatic:
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes
You've obviously not heard about the DRM bollocks then.
DRM is another reason for filesharing. iTunes DRM is crap. Ok its VERY VERY easy to get around it - But not many people know how (It goes with any Audo DRM. Video DRM is different)
The vast majority of iTunes users actually BUY the music, though. Just look at the numbers that the companies putting their tracks on there are posting, and you'll realize that your assumption is wrong. iTunes has such a wide consumer-base that it's almost a mistake NOT to use it.
Trust me, when all you want to do is listen on your iPod, DRM is not a deterrent at all. The only people that are put off by it are people who don't want to pay.
|
| von-X |
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
I also wondered why artists don't do any regular albums like trance artists do. I have no problem buying anything that DJ Ham, Dougal, Gammer and Darwin make because I think their styles are so great. I have no problem with the DJ mixes, but I also like hearing the full song as well.
Very-very agreed! With full of radio edited tracks. This way djs can't really use them, so they will buy vinyls, but it would be good for listeners.
|
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by von-X:
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
I also wondered why artists don't do any regular albums like trance artists do. I have no problem buying anything that DJ Ham, Dougal, Gammer and Darwin make because I think their styles are so great. I have no problem with the DJ mixes, but I also like hearing the full song as well.
Very-very agreed! With full of radio edited tracks. This way djs can't really use them, so they will buy vinyls, but it would be good for listeners.
I'm a listener and a DJ, so radio edits doesn't cut it for... nor does vinyl appeal that much to me, but to get music, i need to buy them |
| von-X |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by von-X:
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
I also wondered why artists don't do any regular albums like trance artists do. I have no problem buying anything that DJ Ham, Dougal, Gammer and Darwin make because I think their styles are so great. I have no problem with the DJ mixes, but I also like hearing the full song as well.
Very-very agreed! With full of radio edited tracks. This way djs can't really use them, so they will buy vinyls, but it would be good for listeners.
I'm a listener and a DJ, so radio edits doesn't cut it for... nor does vinyl appeal that much to me, but to get music, i need to buy them
The conclusion: all music should be available in various versions and format: radio/"12 edit, vinyl/cd/mp3 |
| Hard2Get |
No matter how much benefit file sharing has given anyone, there will still never be an excuse to justify it, ever, it's pointless even trying. |
| deejaybee |
As far as I am aware, I have never seen a penny from any of my tunes that have been broadcast on Di.fm radio, although this is something that I will be checking with my publisher shortly. |
| Dain-Ja |
quote:
Originally posted by deejaybee:
As far as I am aware, I have never seen a penny from any of my tunes that have been broadcast on Di.fm radio, although this is something that I will be checking with my publisher shortly.
yeah, it seems like being licensed allows this station to be LEGAL but that doesn't mean it gives a penny to producers in a small underground music scene like the hardcore one |
| Ghetto_smurf420 |
I was unaware that the CD packs where unlicensed or are you guys talking about the event tape packs Not The Compilation Albums Ie: Bonkers Hardcore Heaven Etc.............Because if buying more vynil over compilation albums will support artists more somebody say the word and ill start buying twice as much vinyl as i do cds right now i buy 3 times as many cd as vinyl i thought the money from the compilation albums wound up ine veryones pockets
By The Way: can any1 real quickly tell me what a chav and a punter are i read it all over this site and am left clueless as to what they mean :D |
| silver |
Soundexchange pays MCPS in england and other countries retrospective equals. You need to have your tracks registered with a publisher. All Digitally Imported channels are the same and all have the same license. |
| Ravenatic |
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
quote:
Originally posted by Ravenatic:
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes
You've obviously not heard about the DRM bollocks then.
DRM is another reason for filesharing. iTunes DRM is crap. Ok its VERY VERY easy to get around it - But not many people know how (It goes with any Audo DRM. Video DRM is different)
The vast majority of iTunes users actually BUY the music, though. Just look at the numbers that the companies putting their tracks on there are posting, and you'll realize that your assumption is wrong. iTunes has such a wide consumer-base that it's almost a mistake NOT to use it.
Trust me, when all you want to do is listen on your iPod, DRM is not a deterrent at all. The only people that are put off by it are people who don't want to pay.
Not what I've heard with so many discussions about it.
I buy stuff off iTunes quite a lot, because I know how to get around the DRM issue. The main thing that people are saying is that they don't like to play their music in iTunes and/or want to put them on their phone and/or to burn as an MP3 CD to use on CD Decks (As well as general Anti-DRM people ofc) - and these people do not know how to get round it.
Yes, alot of people use it - But at the same time, alot of the users complain about it.
I'm so glad IMODownload and the likes do not use DRM :D |
| CDJay |
"I also wondered why artists don't do any regular albums like trance artists do. I have no problem buying anything that DJ Ham, Dougal, Gammer and Darwin make because I think their styles are so great. I have no problem with the DJ mixes, but I also like hearing the full song as well."
CLSM have done three, and Sharkey's second one may well surface in 2008 ( likely hampered by Resist shenannigans ).
I've been toying with the idea for a while, I have no doubt that Darwin or Fracus could beaver away on a truly spectacular broad ranged artist album and it's something I'll definitely consider for 2008.
RFUCD002 would have helped fill the "full track" niche, but due to scene antics I think it's better to put absolutely 100% into HU3. Now or never. Last stand. La la la!
CDay |
| Orbit1 |
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
Soundexchange pays MCPS in england and other countries retrospective equals. You need to have your tracks registered with a publisher. All Digitally Imported channels are the same and all have the same license.
Not that the MCPS actually pays its artists either. Frankly, its a joke. Most of the royalties disappear in administration fees and what not.
quote:
Originally posted by deejaybee:As far as I am aware, I have never seen a penny from any of my tunes that have been broadcast on Di.fm radio, although this is something that I will be checking with my publisher shortly.
Ditto. |
| 98dblachr |
I must say, this really does confuse me.
There are some cracking albums getting released at the moment on the shelves. True Hardcore and Slipmatt, Bunter etcs new slant with Rave Breaks and the traditional stuff on there. Resist have gone under I guess because of poor management, they shelled out for the latest bonkers then bang. Its quite simple, make music people want to hear they will buy it. Blaming filesharing is just a joke. Yes its a big problem, but sorting out albums that can't be ripped isn't. Yes it costs more money but its a sound investment. The fact of the matter is the last decent Bonkers was 13-15, after that its been going down hill. Clubland X-Treme hardcore is for people who arn't really into hardcore, just like the clubland vibe of wigan peer and chavs.
Thats another thing, nowadays a lot of hardcore lovers are chavs, they don't have much money so they fileshare, and get their cds from baz at work or whatever.
Its simple, make decent music and it will sell. Manange your content correctly (eg MP3 over SSL website with DRM suitable for ripping to CD as audio,) and filesharing wont be that much of a problem.
Jesus i downloaded Hixxy's old skool killa kuts then went out and brought the album, the same with 14 & 15. |
| Audio X |
quote:
Originally posted by Ravenatic:
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
quote:
Originally posted by Ravenatic:
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes
You've obviously not heard about the DRM bollocks then.
DRM is another reason for filesharing. iTunes DRM is crap. Ok its VERY VERY easy to get around it - But not many people know how (It goes with any Audo DRM. Video DRM is different)
The vast majority of iTunes users actually BUY the music, though. Just look at the numbers that the companies putting their tracks on there are posting, and you'll realize that your assumption is wrong. iTunes has such a wide consumer-base that it's almost a mistake NOT to use it.
Trust me, when all you want to do is listen on your iPod, DRM is not a deterrent at all. The only people that are put off by it are people who don't want to pay.
Not what I've heard with so many discussions about it.
I buy stuff off iTunes quite a lot, because I know how to get around the DRM issue. The main thing that people are saying is that they don't like to play their music in iTunes and/or want to put them on their phone and/or to burn as an MP3 CD to use on CD Decks (As well as general Anti-DRM people ofc) - and these people do not know how to get round it.
Yes, alot of people use it - But at the same time, alot of the users complain about it.
I'm so glad IMODownload and the likes do not use DRM :D
iTunes is not meant to cater to DJs. Plain and simple. Sure, the tracks will still be available to download in their entirety off sites like IMOdownload, Trackitdown, Beatport, etc. The whole reason for putting them on iTunes in the first place is to reach out to an entirely different demographic. People who buy music just for the sake of listening. The number of people who listen to music solely on their iPod is a lot larger than the number of people who want to play tracks on their CD decks. I'm not proposing a full move to iTunes or anything. I'm talking about putting listener-friendly radio edits of single tracks and mixed compilation albums on the iTunes store so that iTunes users (a lot of whom don't buy music from anywhere else) can have access to hardcore.
|
| Craigavon raver |
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
Kev's right CD packs are a joke, the promotor pockets all the money, hard working artists and labels get zero income, when CD packs first arrived on the scene it was magically decided that DJ's were suppose to get an increase in DJ fees in order to be recorded but this has three problems
1. No one actually agreed to this it just came into effect one day.
2. From what I've have heard no DJ has apparently recieved any extra money.
3. If the DJ did agree to be recorded, the DJ is getting the extra money not the artists that made the tunes. Granted the DJ could actually play an entire set of his own tunes but I'm sure that isn't going to happen 99% of the time... well maybe sometimes :p but you see my point.
why does a artist not get payed for having a track on a cd eg bonkers,but then why should they as if there tunes r good it gets them noticed and people will look out for there stuff then buy it,because if i was a producer i would happily gave 1 of my tracks 2 any dj for a compilation for free so people would get 2 know me and possibly start buying my stuff,as do u really think that i (and a lot of other people)would of bought hardcore underground if we hadn,t heard of kurt,stromtropper e.t.c of other compilations no,but we heard there stuff we liked it,so we buy it and i will continue 2 buy it as its good,but if i hadn,t heard them on bonkers e.t.c i,ve never have bought it because nobody would have heard of them,but that a side i do think they should get something,i was just making my point that they would be nowhere if there tracks weren,t on compilations
|
| Audio X |
^^^^^^^^
CD Packs != Compilations |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by Ravenatic:
quote:
Originally posted by Audio X:
I think it's time to put radio edits of the singles on iTunes
You've obviously not heard about the DRM bollocks then.
DRM is another reason for filesharing. iTunes DRM is crap. Ok its VERY VERY easy to get around it - But not many people know how (It goes with any Audo DRM. Video DRM is different)
Come on seriouosly do you think DRM would make the slighest bit of difference? Its widely known fact to beat it all you need to do it burn then import the tracks not to mention there is loads of programs that will do it for you!
Oh and i take it you have never heard of iTunes Plus? higher bit rate and no DRM
|
| raindance-rob |
to be fair tho alot of djs dont pay for their vinyl anyways & i know of a few big name djs who fileshare. 2bh tho hardcore will survive no matter what its lasted this long aint it. i understand that you gotta make money but aint you all forgetting the most important thing its about the love of the musik & dont get me wrong you gotta make money tho. licensed packs aint hard to do look at the old dreamscape packs about 90% of them were MCPS licensed so it aint hard to do is it. |
| Hirschi |
Hello guys,
may I say a view words from a Krauts perspective? ;) If I were a DJ and producer I would not bet on CDs anymore. Instead the distribution over the Internet is more and more common. Why is this a good(!) thing?
a) Fans pay the artists directly. No major label or marketing company lower the profit.
b) Way more convenient for listeners because they got it ready to stuff it on the MP3-player.
c) Distribution is relativly easy, fast, 24h a day and worldwide
It's also a good idea to offer custom made CDs, like Sy and Unknown offer(ed?) on their website.
And about the filesharing, I have to admit, I did it and do it once in a while, espacially Hardcore tracks. But before you judge, hear me out. In fact I've never bought so much CDs in my entire live, since I 'came' to the scene through filesharing, and I still buy compilations regularly. I possibly would have never found out about HHC because nearly no one in Germany has ever heard about it. With programms like ka**a or so*****k I was able to find more and more tunes and develop my interest in this kind of music, and over the years I began buying more and sharing less until it must have become like somthing about 20%(through sharing) and 80%(buying) because now I know what and most important where to buy. To sum it up, Hardcore surely got profit, which is growing, at least in my case.
greetz
Hirschi |
| raindance-rob |
Hello guys,
may I say a view words from a Krauts perspective? ;) If I were a DJ and producer I would not bet on CDs anymore. Instead the distribution over the Internet is more and more common. Why is this a good(!) thing?
a) Fans pay the artists directly. No major label or marketing company lower the profit.
b) Way more convenient for listeners because they got it ready to stuff it on the MP3-player.
c) Distribution is relativly easy, fast, 24h a day and worldwide
It's also a good idea to offer custom made CDs, like Sy and Unknown offer(ed?) on their website.
And about the filesharing, I have to admit, I did it and do it once in a while, espacially Hardcore tracks. But before you judge, hear me out. In fact I've never bought so much CDs in my entire live, since I 'came' to the scene through filesharing, and I still buy compilations regularly. I possibly would have never found out about HHC because nearly no one in Germany has ever heard about it. With programms like ka**a or so*****k I was able to find more and more tunes and develop my interest in this kind of music, and over the years I began buying more and sharing less until it must have become like somthing about 20%(through sharing) and 80%(buying) because now I know what and most important where to buy. To sum it up, Hardcore surely got profit, which is growing, at least in my case.
greetz
Hirschi
Luna-C also offers cds & dvds.
To be fair this aint a new thing tape packs have been around for years & no one ever got paid, most djs didnt even know that their sets were being recorded back in the day & most ppl used to copy tape packs for one another but hardcore didnt die back then.
also look at pirate radio no one gets paid (infact djs pay to dj on them) fracus started off on dimension fm as dj xl, dfm records was part of dimension fm, he played DFM1 on dimension fm a year before it got released & they got permission from the labels to play their tunes (but no one got paid) dj vibes & luna c were on eruption fm recently & they played theirs & other ppls tunes, so from what ya saying their killing the scene. also everyone file shares & ppl are only saying that they regret it cuz their chatting on this site come on lets be honest. |
| silver |
You're confusing the facts, pirate radio stations's are not run at a profit, the DJ's and artists support it, live event recording CD packs (not compilation albums) are sold for profit and 100% of the money goes to the promotor and not the artists. If money is being made then the person that made that tune should be compensated for it. |
| novaboy |
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
You're confusing the facts, pirate radio stations's are not run at a profit, the DJ's and artists support it, live event recording CD packs (not compilation albums) are sold for profit and 100% of the money goes to the promotor and not the artists. If money is being made then the person that made that tune should be compensated for it.
wel thats unfair.
why doesnt the artist get profit? |
| silver |
quote:
Originally posted by novaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
You're confusing the facts, pirate radio stations's are not run at a profit, the DJ's and artists support it, live event recording CD packs (not compilation albums) are sold for profit and 100% of the money goes to the promotor and not the artists. If money is being made then the person that made that tune should be compensated for it.
wel thats unfair.
why doesnt the artist get profit?
You can't be serious.
|
| Dain-Ja |
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
quote:
Originally posted by novaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
You're confusing the facts, pirate radio stations's are not run at a profit, the DJ's and artists support it, live event recording CD packs (not compilation albums) are sold for profit and 100% of the money goes to the promotor and not the artists. If money is being made then the person that made that tune should be compensated for it.
wel thats unfair.
why doesnt the artist get profit?
You can't be serious.
Seriously, wtf!
Do you even understand what pirate radio is novaboy?! |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
quote:
Originally posted by novaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
You're confusing the facts, pirate radio stations's are not run at a profit, the DJ's and artists support it, live event recording CD packs (not compilation albums) are sold for profit and 100% of the money goes to the promotor and not the artists. If money is being made then the person that made that tune should be compensated for it.
wel thats unfair.
why doesnt the artist get profit?
You can't be serious.
Seriously, wtf!
Do you even understand what pirate radio is novaboy?!
Based on the information here, it seems liek this radio station is still a pirate radio aswell. That SoundXchange doesn't pay the correct people (seeing deejaybee & sam isnt getting payed) |
| roundhead711 |
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
Garedos: Totally different, HappyHardcore.com radio is 100% fully licensed radio station, every track played on there is paid basically. The license is paid to SoundExchange, a nonprofit organization that collects royalty payments from digital music broadcasters and distributes them to rights holders. SoundExchange is an American company since we broadcast from there, but artist payments make it all over the world.
Back on topic.... promoters shouldn't rely on sales of illegal CD's to fund their parties. It's like a movie theater selling illegal recordings of their movies because they don't have enough customers coming in. While I'm in support for all promotors and events big or small the end don't justify the means.
While hardcore (and music in general) is a passion, it (like everything else) has a money side to it, if any money is to made from a track at least some of it should go to the person that made the track don't you think?
Me and my mate are the organisers of a hardcore night for under18's. Trying to Teach them the mistakes of people like Rankin etc.
The Club we play in (and where i work) pays a licensing fee so i can play tunes and money is paid to the right holders just like the radio.
|
| djepi |
Lol. Some
1) Poor Quality Tunes - It seems CD comp albums are being released every other week and most of the tunes on them are just crap. If people make quality tunes then people will buy them by the bucket full (then it doesn't matter if people are file sharing). Simple as.
2) Legal MP3's - There's been so many tunes this year that I'd have loved to have legally downloaded and paid for but... I can't find a major legal download site. Anyone heard of itunes or trackitdown.net - hardcore producers haven't. I've got cash to spend and they just don't want it... so I'll download it from some illegal file sharing site.
So to sum up - shit tunes everywhere and nowhere to pay to download the good ones.
no wonder things are going tits up. |
| HARRIBO |
quote:
Originally posted by djepi:
Lol. Some
1) Poor Quality Tunes - It seems CD comp albums are being released every other week and most of the tunes on them are just crap. If people make quality tunes then people will buy them by the bucket full (then it doesn't matter if people are file sharing). Simple as.
2) Legal MP3's - There's been so many tunes this year that I'd have loved to have legally downloaded and paid for but... I can't find a major legal download site. Anyone heard of itunes or trackitdown.net - hardcore producers haven't. I've got cash to spend and they just don't want it... so I'll download it from some illegal file sharing site.
So to sum up - shit tunes everywhere and nowhere to pay to download the good ones.
no wonder things are going tits up.
theres a sticky thread at the top of the topic page all about where to legally download mp3's
|
| djepi |
I know there are sites out there but theres not one site which sells mp3s from all the 'big' hardcore artists. People can't be bothered searching tons of different websites and even then they probably won't find much.
I was looking for somewhere to buy Gammers latest stuff and some new tracks from Al Storm. Two big artists, no downloads. |
| Leto |
^^Their new stuff isn't on vinyl either.
It depends on the label if it ever sees a download release. |
| HARRIBO |
quote:
Originally posted by djepi:
I know there are sites out there but theres not one site which sells mp3s from all the 'big' hardcore artists. People can't be bothered searching tons of different websites and even then they probably won't find much.
I was looking for somewhere to buy Gammers latest stuff and some new tracks from Al Storm. Two big artists, no downloads.
good luck there although have heard that a next gen mp3 store will be up soon |
| djepi |
quote:
^^Their new stuff isn't on vinyl either.
It depends on the label if it ever sees a download release.
So....
I can't download it and
I can't buy it on vinyl either.
lol.
|
| Leto |
quote:
Originally posted by djepi:
quote:
^^Their new stuff isn't on vinyl either.
It depends on the label if it ever sees a download release.
So....
I can't download it and
I can't buy it on vinyl either.
lol.
Yeah, stuff that's on compilations is usually not out on anything at the same time. Although, Next Gen and Nu Energy are usually exceptions to that rule.
|
| DJ Euphoric |
Half of their stuff does not work. |
| djepi |
quote:
Yeah, stuff that's on compilations is usually not out on anything at the same time. Although, Next Gen and Nu Energy are usually exceptions to that rule.
I know - fustrating isn't it. I don't know of another genre of dance music that operates like that.
|
| HARRIBO |
quote:
Originally posted by Leto:
quote:
Originally posted by djepi:
quote:
^^Their new stuff isn't on vinyl either.
It depends on the label if it ever sees a download release.
So....
I can't download it and
I can't buy it on vinyl either.
lol.
Yeah, stuff that's on compilations is usually not out on anything at the same time. Although, Next Gen and Nu Energy are usually exceptions to that rule.
some djs prefer to keep their new records for use at raves 1 so that people will hear them and want to buy them and 2 so other djs dont get hold of a copy and use them at rival raves |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by HARRIBO:
quote:
Originally posted by djepi:
I know there are sites out there but theres not one site which sells mp3s from all the 'big' hardcore artists. People can't be bothered searching tons of different websites and even then they probably won't find much.
I was looking for somewhere to buy Gammers latest stuff and some new tracks from Al Storm. Two big artists, no downloads.
good luck there although have heard that a next gen mp3 store will be up soon
Brisk hasn't comfirmed that, and frankly, when the new site is up, I dont tihink the MP3 store will be there (yet). And if it is. Then I will buy each and evry track (even those I dont like at all) |
| raindance-rob |
i never said that pirate radio was for profit (it aint) i know more then anyone how it works cuz iv run two stations myself, all that im saying is that ppl moan about p2p but pirate radio is the same no one gets paid, thats all that i meant.
i agree most legal sites dont have what we're after or if they do (eg mp3.com) its all tunes by ppl no ones ever heard of before, imo downloads mp3s sound shit, most are low bitrate & have been ripped from vinyl (poorly). |
| raindance-rob |
2bh i dont by cds i prefer to have the vinyl i always have. |
| Torpex |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
imo downloads mp3s sound shit, most are low bitrate & have been ripped from vinyl (poorly).
Umm... LOL? |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by Torpex:
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
imo downloads mp3s sound shit, most are low bitrate & have been ripped from vinyl (poorly).
Umm... LOL?
I would agree with that! Have got a few tracks from the Bass Genertar label all sounded fine but i bought "techno wonderland" the version i got from p2p is a lower bitrate but the quality of it is so much better, also have the Ripped 2 FCUK version of true love never dies the recording of that is piss poor with major clipping, since then i have not used IMO again |
| Samination |
ehm, I got that True Love never dies from IMO Download and it's not shit. Why would Sy upload a vinyl ripp from a label Im sure he has completely in digital?
Anyways, most of the older labels (such as Bass Generator and Slammin Vinyl) where ripped from vinyl or old DATs so yea, the quality should be fairly lower... but come on. Also, The NEC MP3 store also had some lower quality ones (do you remember the message above the lists? "We got about 90% of the tracks on DAT". So some will not be full quality) |
| Cotts |
It is a very difficult situation indeed, if there was a clear solution or answer it would have been implemented already. The fact is there is not a practical means to protect your content in this day and age where home computers have the capability to copy media, this is not just a problem with hardcore it affects EVERY type of licenced digital content. It just really hits home with hardcore as its a small community / business. e.g. How much money has microsoft lost becuase of pirated copies of windows? It would be in the billions.
My point is its a problem affecting everyone.
I was having a chat to a few producers on the weekend (I won't name anyone) but they felt as though it is a good thing for hardcore. They felt as though it will push it in a new direction, away from a standard business model which is driven by money. Sure the compilation albums will drop off but people doing it purely for the passion will continue to do so.
Again I see the other side to this arguement, im not saying i support the view that money should not be paid becuase artists do really deserve to get paid for the wonderful music they create.
I cannot think of a solution to this problem it just goes round in circles, just like everyones discussions will do. Sure the business model is oriented for dj's, but you cannot blame the producers of the content for loosing out money due to piracy. There are many ways to approach this and there are many factors, lets just hope hardcore survives through it and people put the money into the music that they love. |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
ehm, I got that True Love never dies from IMO Download and it's not shit.
I got the 320 kbps version and trust me there is severe clipping........ |
| luminate |
this may seem like a very one-sided opinion, and if i have my facts wrong feel fre to correct and humble me, but i was of the understanding that guys like darren styles and hixxy and kevin energy even would be making far more money from gigs then from releasing tunes.
whilst i enjoy producing (which i'm very new to, n rather shite at lol) the bigger picture would imply that its merely a tool used to help gain bigger and better bookings.
with an audience that isnt broad enough to provide ANY hardcore producer, no matter how good, a safe career financially solely based on production, anyone who doesnt see it as a stepping stone (not including those who produce simply for the enjoyment of it) needs to re-adjust their way of thinking.
tho i do agree that its absolute ******** that promoters are screwing producers out of what they deserve. making "radio edits" on something like itunes really does seem like the right direction to take things in to help pump some much deserved funds back to those who have earned it. even if its not the actually solution to the problem (for now, coz there is always a way around everything and there will always be those who will persist until they find it) it certainly seems like it's worth investigating.
if a group of well recognised producers just took the risk (which i cant really see being m,uch of a rick tbh) jumped on board with itunes i think the chances are very good that it would turn out well and would soon become the norm. |
| HARRIBO |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by HARRIBO:
quote:
Originally posted by djepi:
I know there are sites out there but theres not one site which sells mp3s from all the 'big' hardcore artists. People can't be bothered searching tons of different websites and even then they probably won't find much.
I was looking for somewhere to buy Gammers latest stuff and some new tracks from Al Storm. Two big artists, no downloads.
good luck there although have heard that a next gen mp3 store will be up soon
Brisk hasn't comfirmed that, and frankly, when the new site is up, I dont tihink the MP3 store will be there (yet). And if it is. Then I will buy each and evry track (even those I dont like at all)
i was told that it would be up from the new year but not live |
| Craigavon raver |
quote:
Originally posted by luminate:
this may seem like a very one-sided opinion, and if i have my facts wrong feel fre to correct and humble me, but i was of the understanding that guys like darren styles and hixxy and kevin energy even would be making far more money from gigs then from releasing tunes.
whilst i enjoy producing (which i'm very new to, n rather shite at lol) the bigger picture would imply that its merely a tool used to help gain bigger and better bookings.
with an audience that isnt broad enough to provide ANY hardcore producer, no matter how good, a safe career financially solely based on production, anyone who doesnt see it as a stepping stone (not including those who produce simply for the enjoyment of it) needs to re-adjust their way of thinking.
tho i do agree that its absolute ******** that promoters are screwing producers out of what they deserve. making "radio edits" on something like itunes really does seem like the right direction to take things in to help pump some much deserved funds back to those who have earned it. even if its not the actually solution to the problem (for now, coz there is always a way around everything and there will always be those who will persist until they find it) it certainly seems like it's worth investigating.
if a group of well recognised producers just took the risk (which i cant really see being m,uch of a rick tbh) jumped on board with itunes i think the chances are very good that it would turn out well and would soon become the norm.
true,a few years ago brisk came out and said that him and ham didn,t make much of vinyl sales,and that there biggest selling vinyl was the brisk and ham remixs of shooting star,which sold between 9000 and 10,000 units,and that all the money was in mixing compilations,and i,m sure they would pocket a rite few grand for doing a couple of sets at the weekend |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
ehm, I got that True Love never dies from IMO Download and it's not shit.
I got the 320 kbps version and trust me there is severe clipping........
Since I presume Sy mastered it, i copied this from the Quosh mp3/wav store:
quote:
All our .wav files are mastered for optimal club play (ie they are as loud as possible without distortion).
|
| raindance-rob |
from the mp3s iv heard from imo download id say that spinback rips them himslef |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
from the mp3s iv heard from imo download id say that spinback rips them himslef
instead of spitting out shit, could you say what tracks you have bought and are as shit as you say?
and just because some tracks seems to have clipping, it could very well be mastering, not ripping that's is the cause (IMOdownload just gets 320/192kb/s mp3s) |
| raindance-rob |
i brought Double Trouble Volume 2 & a few others, i have it on vinyl but i wanted it in mp3 format |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
ehm, I got that True Love never dies from IMO Download and it's not shit.
I got the 320 kbps version and trust me there is severe clipping........
Since I presume Sy mastered it, i copied this from the Quosh mp3/wav store:
quote:
All our .wav files are mastered for optimal club play (ie they are as loud as possible without distortion).
Clipping = distortion
I can assure you the version i got from imo sounds like shit |
| raindance-rob |
wav files are better & usually lossless :o) |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
wav files are better & usually lossless :o)
No sh*t sherlock? LMAO
|
| Future_Shock |
.wav files are better than all mp3s but that still doesnt mean there can't be clipping.
Original tracks are exported as .wav files and mastered as .wav files - any clipping happened as a .wav file before it happened anywhere else.
If they were ripped, and above 0dB when they were recorded then yeah that can cause clipping too... |
| Dain-Ja |
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...) |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
wav files are better & usually lossless :o)
aiff files are better than wav! |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...)
Finally someone that knows what i am talking about! I can hear the clipping on my sh*tty speakers in my room, through my head phones it is crystal clear that there is clipping!
I can only imagine what it would sound like in a club  i certanily would not be brave enough to try it
@djSamination
I can tell by my ears that there is clipping but 2 more factors made me sure,
1. the wave forms on scratch live are 1 continuos rectangle (instead of the usual peaks fro the bass etc.)
2. mp3 gain also confirms there is clipping http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ try it.......... |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...)
Finally someone that knows what i am talking about! I can hear the clipping on my sh*tty speakers in my room, through my head phones it is crystal clear that there is clipping!
I can only imagine what it would sound like in a club i certanily would not be brave enough to try it
@djSamination
I can tell by my ears that there is clipping but 2 more factors made me sure,
1. the wave forms on scratch live are 1 continuos rectangle (instead of the usual peaks fro the bass etc.)
2. mp3 gain also confirms there is clipping http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ try it..........
So I didnt listen to the track at fulle volume (that way all tracks clip), but you dont need to make a statement 3 times in a row after my last reply. I will confess that I haven't relistened to the track during this conversation as I don't like the track anyways.
And yea Dain-Ja, when I rip my vinyls I dont try to max them, tho I've noticed alot of hardcore tracks have "near clipping" for basicly each kick/bassdrum, and no I dont use soul seek (only the occational log on for chats). If you're trying to bring me out as a no good for nothing, you're losing the battle, as I've done that myself for the last 2 years |
| raindance-rob |
thats what happens when you rip vinyl tho (if their scratched), if their not then it shouldnt be a problem |
| Brainchild |
I bought a MP3 track from IMO. Near the end of the track there was a huge jump missing out about 2 seconds of the track. Not very impressed. |
| raindance-rob |
? what do you mean by a jump ? im guessing that part of the tune is missing ? |
| Samination |
that happens sometimes (on all download sites). Either you didn't get the complete file,it was corrupted when it was uploaded to the server or the ones who uploaded didn't bother to check the files.
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
thats what happens when you rip vinyl tho (if their scratched), if their not then it shouldnt be a problem
Well I try to clean my audio file before I save it |
| raindance-rob |
ud think that they would check em tho when ppl are paying to download them. |
| Dain-Ja |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...)
Finally someone that knows what i am talking about! I can hear the clipping on my sh*tty speakers in my room, through my head phones it is crystal clear that there is clipping!
I can only imagine what it would sound like in a club i certanily would not be brave enough to try it
@djSamination
I can tell by my ears that there is clipping but 2 more factors made me sure,
1. the wave forms on scratch live are 1 continuos rectangle (instead of the usual peaks fro the bass etc.)
2. mp3 gain also confirms there is clipping http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ try it..........
So I didnt listen to the track at fulle volume (that way all tracks clip), but you dont need to make a statement 3 times in a row after my last reply.
And yea Dain-Ja, when I rip my vinyls I dont try to max them, tho I've noticed alot of hardcore tracks have "near clipping" for basicly each kick/bassdrum, and no I dont use soul seek (only the occational log on for chats). If you're trying to bring me out as a no good for nothing, you're losing the battle, as I've done that myself for the last 2 years
What the hell are you talking about?! All tracks don't clip at full volume. If the recording/file is not clipped playing it at a full volume won't make it clip. It might distort if you have a shitty amp and/or speakers but that's not clipping.
Also, if a recording is clipped, it will sound like shit at even the lowest of volume levels.
You obviously don't understand anything if you're saying "near clipping". They his near zero because the whole point is to master a track so the peaks are at 0dB (or just under) - that way there's no clipping and maximum volume (which, with anything analog reduce the noise floor and therefore maximizes quality).
And yeah, I don't really need to bring you down, everyone knows you're not only a pirate but someone that runs a hardcore music piracy group. I can't belive Silver even allows you to have mixes on this radio station. |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
ud think that they would check em tho when ppl are paying to download them.
to be honest, the ones giving them to IMOd should check to see if it works aswell. Considering the amount of files they have, I doubt they got time to check all the files, It would be wizer to wait till someone notice a damaged file so they can repair it. The poor thing with this, is that if someone else have bought it and not noticed he got a damaged/incorrect file, he will never be contacted with the new information |
| raindance-rob |
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...)
Finally someone that knows what i am talking about! I can hear the clipping on my sh*tty speakers in my room, through my head phones it is crystal clear that there is clipping!
I can only imagine what it would sound like in a club i certanily would not be brave enough to try it
@djSamination
I can tell by my ears that there is clipping but 2 more factors made me sure,
1. the wave forms on scratch live are 1 continuos rectangle (instead of the usual peaks fro the bass etc.)
2. mp3 gain also confirms there is clipping http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ try it..........
So I didnt listen to the track at fulle volume (that way all tracks clip), but you dont need to make a statement 3 times in a row after my last reply.
And yea Dain-Ja, when I rip my vinyls I dont try to max them, tho I've noticed alot of hardcore tracks have "near clipping" for basicly each kick/bassdrum, and no I dont use soul seek (only the occational log on for chats). If you're trying to bring me out as a no good for nothing, you're losing the battle, as I've done that myself for the last 2 years
What the hell are you talking about?! All tracks don't clip at full volume. If the recording/file is not clipped playing it at a full volume won't make it clip. It might distort if you have a shitty amp and/or speakers but that's not clipping.
Also, if a recording is clipped, it will sound like shit at even the lowest of volume levels.
You obviously don't understand anything if you're saying "near clipping". They his near zero because the whole point is to master a track so the peaks are at 0dB (or just under) - that way there's no clipping and maximum volume (which, with anything analog reduce the noise floor and therefore maximizes quality).
And yeah, I don't really need to bring you down, everyone knows you're not only a pirate but someone that runs a hardcore music piracy group. I can't belive Silver even allows you to have mixes on this radio station.
defo mate you got it in a nutshell there |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...)
Finally someone that knows what i am talking about! I can hear the clipping on my sh*tty speakers in my room, through my head phones it is crystal clear that there is clipping!
I can only imagine what it would sound like in a club i certanily would not be brave enough to try it
@djSamination
I can tell by my ears that there is clipping but 2 more factors made me sure,
1. the wave forms on scratch live are 1 continuos rectangle (instead of the usual peaks fro the bass etc.)
2. mp3 gain also confirms there is clipping http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ try it..........
So I didnt listen to the track at fulle volume (that way all tracks clip), but you dont need to make a statement 3 times in a row after my last reply.
And yea Dain-Ja, when I rip my vinyls I dont try to max them, tho I've noticed alot of hardcore tracks have "near clipping" for basicly each kick/bassdrum, and no I dont use soul seek (only the occational log on for chats). If you're trying to bring me out as a no good for nothing, you're losing the battle, as I've done that myself for the last 2 years
What the hell are you talking about?! All tracks don't clip at full volume. If the recording/file is not clipped playing it at a full volume won't make it clip. It might distort if you have a shitty amp and/or speakers but that's not clipping.
Also, if a recording is clipped, it will sound like shit at even the lowest of volume levels.
You obviously don't understand anything if you're saying "near clipping". They his near zero because the whole point is to master a track so the peaks are at 0dB (or just under) - that way there's no clipping and maximum volume (which, with anything analog reduce the noise floor and therefore maximizes quality).
And yeah, I don't really need to bring you down, everyone knows you're not only a pirate but someone that runs a hardcore music piracy group. I can't belive Silver even allows you to have mixes on this radio station.
So, I don't know about producing, I'm just a fcuking listener
I dont run any piracy group. I was (and still am) just a one guy who made vinyl ripps and shared them on p2p networks.
and since you dont seem to know anythign about piracy either. PIRATE GROUPS DO NOT UPLOAD THEIR STUFF TO VARIOUS SITES, THOSE WHO DOWNLOAD DOES.
anyways, when it comes to my "mixes", I have only made 2 back2back mixes with Bluecore, and they are off the stream for a long time now. and why would I upload mixes to a site if people are forced to listen to it here?
... I better shut up, I just keep getting less and less friends for not trying to defend myself |
| Dain-Ja |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...)
Finally someone that knows what i am talking about! I can hear the clipping on my sh*tty speakers in my room, through my head phones it is crystal clear that there is clipping!
I can only imagine what it would sound like in a club i certanily would not be brave enough to try it
@djSamination
I can tell by my ears that there is clipping but 2 more factors made me sure,
1. the wave forms on scratch live are 1 continuos rectangle (instead of the usual peaks fro the bass etc.)
2. mp3 gain also confirms there is clipping http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ try it..........
So I didnt listen to the track at fulle volume (that way all tracks clip), but you dont need to make a statement 3 times in a row after my last reply.
And yea Dain-Ja, when I rip my vinyls I dont try to max them, tho I've noticed alot of hardcore tracks have "near clipping" for basicly each kick/bassdrum, and no I dont use soul seek (only the occational log on for chats). If you're trying to bring me out as a no good for nothing, you're losing the battle, as I've done that myself for the last 2 years
What the hell are you talking about?! All tracks don't clip at full volume. If the recording/file is not clipped playing it at a full volume won't make it clip. It might distort if you have a shitty amp and/or speakers but that's not clipping.
Also, if a recording is clipped, it will sound like shit at even the lowest of volume levels.
You obviously don't understand anything if you're saying "near clipping". They his near zero because the whole point is to master a track so the peaks are at 0dB (or just under) - that way there's no clipping and maximum volume (which, with anything analog reduce the noise floor and therefore maximizes quality).
And yeah, I don't really need to bring you down, everyone knows you're not only a pirate but someone that runs a hardcore music piracy group. I can't belive Silver even allows you to have mixes on this radio station.
So, I don't know about producing, I'm just a fcuking listener
I dont run any piracy group. I was (and still am) just a one guy who made vinyl ripps and shared them on p2p networks.
and since you dont seem to know anythign about piracy either. PIRATE GROUPS DO NOT UPLOAD THEIR STUFF TO VARIOUS SITES, THOSE WHO DOWNLOAD DOES.
anyways, when it comes to my "mixes", I have only made 2 back2back mixes with Bluecore, and they are off the stream for a long time now. and why would I upload mixes to a site if people are forced to listen to it here?
... I better shut up, I just keep getting less and less friends for not trying to defend myself
If you don't know what you're talking about don't say anything.
I highly doubt anybody will accept your weak defenses. The fact is that you are a pirate, you admit it and you hurt our scene. Sharing vinyl rips has an exponential effect since hundreds, if not thousands, of people end up with the file. |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by __CMC__:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
yeah, I've had some clipped tracks off IMOdownload too
djSamination mixes vinyl rips he shares on ******** so he probably doesn't have great hearing in the first place (cause vinyl rips sound like complete garbage 99,9% of the time...)
Finally someone that knows what i am talking about! I can hear the clipping on my sh*tty speakers in my room, through my head phones it is crystal clear that there is clipping!
I can only imagine what it would sound like in a club i certanily would not be brave enough to try it
@djSamination
I can tell by my ears that there is clipping but 2 more factors made me sure,
1. the wave forms on scratch live are 1 continuos rectangle (instead of the usual peaks fro the bass etc.)
2. mp3 gain also confirms there is clipping http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ try it..........
So I didnt listen to the track at fulle volume (that way all tracks clip), but you dont need to make a statement 3 times in a row after my last reply.
And yea Dain-Ja, when I rip my vinyls I dont try to max them, tho I've noticed alot of hardcore tracks have "near clipping" for basicly each kick/bassdrum, and no I dont use soul seek (only the occational log on for chats). If you're trying to bring me out as a no good for nothing, you're losing the battle, as I've done that myself for the last 2 years
What the hell are you talking about?! All tracks don't clip at full volume. If the recording/file is not clipped playing it at a full volume won't make it clip. It might distort if you have a shitty amp and/or speakers but that's not clipping.
Also, if a recording is clipped, it will sound like shit at even the lowest of volume levels.
You obviously don't understand anything if you're saying "near clipping". They his near zero because the whole point is to master a track so the peaks are at 0dB (or just under) - that way there's no clipping and maximum volume (which, with anything analog reduce the noise floor and therefore maximizes quality).
And yeah, I don't really need to bring you down, everyone knows you're not only a pirate but someone that runs a hardcore music piracy group. I can't belive Silver even allows you to have mixes on this radio station.
So, I don't know about producing, I'm just a fcuking listener
I dont run any piracy group. I was (and still am) just a one guy who made vinyl ripps and shared them on p2p networks.
and since you dont seem to know anythign about piracy either. PIRATE GROUPS DO NOT UPLOAD THEIR STUFF TO VARIOUS SITES, THOSE WHO DOWNLOAD DOES.
anyways, when it comes to my "mixes", I have only made 2 back2back mixes with Bluecore, and they are off the stream for a long time now. and why would I upload mixes to a site if people are forced to listen to it here?
... I better shut up, I just keep getting less and less friends for not trying to defend myself
If you don't know what you're talking about don't say anything.
I highly doubt anybody will accept your weak defenses. The fact is that you are a pirate, you admit it and you hurt our scene. Sharing vinyl rips has an exponential effect since hundreds, if not thousands, of people end up with the file.
that depends. People barely touched my "upload" as it didnt contain the 3 names of Hixxy, Styles or Breeze.
And rather not oppenly admiting I fileshare, would you rather have me lie, get close and then finally get exposed as a real con artist? Then I'd rather act like Rankin, steal and then sell/expose the tracks as my own |
| Dain-Ja |
you're only exposing yourself because so many people have called you on it in the past
you were also BSing people on ush saying you only share and download vinyl rips of tracks that are no longer available, however that was proven wrong many times
and you were also forced to admit to downloading tracks released solely on CD
Anyways, we should be talking about the scene, not DJ kazaa here...let's get back on track.
People like Samus here will keep doing this because they have found ways of justifying it to themselves - we need to find a way to work around people like him. |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
you're only exposing yourself because so many people have called you on it in the past
Actually, I haven't counted the many post I mad that where edited by a Mod because I said to much about filesharing
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
you were also BSing people on ush saying you only share and download vinyl rips of tracks that are no longer available, however that was proven wrong many times
I share, not download (illegal) vinyl rips, last time I properly download v-rips where back in 2005, where most stuff where being uploaded to download services
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
and you were also forced to admit to downloading tracks released solely on CD.
yet again sharing, not download (well I did download Bonkers 11, 12 and 17, but I never had them more than 1 or 2 days)
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
Anyways, we should be talking about the scene, not DJ kazaa here...let's get back on track.
Yea, that's why I said I'd shut up, but i keep getting bitchslapped
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
People like Samus here will keep doing this because they have found ways of justifying it to themselves - we need to find a way to work around people like him.
Only way to do this (what I've seen), is to force each and every country in the world to apply the same law & rules when it comes to filesharing, and punishment.
Just like in my case, Sweden. It is not a fileshares paradise everyone seems to think. It's just that the government hasn't put much funds into the police authorities (for any kind of crime to add to the information), and we have the largest amount of people who have access to broadband at home.
In the states (Im just going to use what I've heard, I'm propably exaduaring (spelling?)), the laws are too forceful, and it always strikes the real smalltime filesharers (like little girls with 1-2 britney spears songs?).
But as mentioned before (and on USH), Hardcore isn't based around music anymore, it's based about DJs spining tracks. Even tho I'd want to see more widespreed single releases (not only on 1 kind of format), just face it, Hardcore radio cuts doesn't really appeal to many (considering most UK Hardcore is produced for mixing)
|
| Dain-Ja |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
you're only exposing yourself because so many people have called you on it in the past
Actually, I haven't counted the many post I mad that where edited by a Mod because I said to much about filesharing
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
you were also BSing people on ush saying you only share and download vinyl rips of tracks that are no longer available, however that was proven wrong many times
I share, not download (illegal) vinyl rips, last time I properly download v-rips where back in 2005, where most stuff where being uploaded to download services
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
and you were also forced to admit to downloading tracks released solely on CD.
yet again sharing, not download (well I did download Bonkers 11, 12 and 17, but I never had them more than 1 or 2 days)
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
Anyways, we should be talking about the scene, not DJ kazaa here...let's get back on track.
Yea, that's why I said I'd shut up, but i keep getting bitchslapped
quote:
Originally posted by Dain-Ja:
People like Samus here will keep doing this because they have found ways of justifying it to themselves - we need to find a way to work around people like him.
Only way to do this (what I've seen), is to force each and every country in the world to apply the same law & rules when it comes to filesharing, and punishment.
Just like in my case, Sweden. It is not a fileshares paradise everyone seems to think. It's just that the government hasn't put much funds into the police authoratize (for any kind of crime to add to the information), and we have the largest amount of people who have access to broadband at home.
In the states (Im just going to use what I've heard, I'm propably exaduaring (spelling?)), the laws are too forceful, and it always strikes the real smalltime filesharers (like little girls with 1-2 britney spears songs?)
The root problem is not legislation or policing.
Proof is that the USA has ridiculously strict laws that haven't had any effect.
The root of the problem is skewed morals - people believe they're entitled to things because there wasn't enough education done in the early days of P2P, and now it has become a standard and doubts have been eliminated from the younger generations' moral code.
Obviously, we can't tell people not to share, not to download because people will always believe that it doesn't hurt if THEY do it (much like people that think it's useless to vote in elections because it's only one vote).
Our small EDM scene needs to adapt to these skewed morals and find new ways of making profit. I guess we'll see what happens... |
| Samination |
Yea...even tho it propably sounds like jackshit coming from me. But Im trying to amend for filesharing. I wont deny or wont be ashamed of filesharing, because without it, I would propably never would have liked Hardcore.
I say it like this because I actually bought both Off Yer Nut!! 1 and 2 from a sale by misstake, and barely did not like any of the tracks, before I started using computers |
| Luna-C |
To reply to why files are sometimes fked up when you download, it can be because the hosted files are corrupt. The reason they are not checked is because it takes a long time. I didnt check every KF track before sending it to IMO simply because I sent them around 400 tracks. So, how long would it take to check every single track? 400 x 7 minutes. Hmmm....now think about IMO checking every single track before uploading it. That would probably take years - literally.
The result is a few bad files turn up. The thing to do is notify the website that you downloaded from, and tell them. They will tell the label its owned by, and it is their responsibility to fix it.
Also, some MP3 files are taken from vinyl - not often, but it happens. The reason is usually that the original master recording got lost or the DAT it was on got destroyed or corrupted. This happened to me with Jimmy J & Cru-l-t's "Santa Maria". I dont have the master DAT. Nor does anyone else. The best I can do is record it in and clean it up from vinyl. Which is what I did...but even so, its an official download coming from the owner, and as such, it is legal and remains the best quality version out there, because any one else who has recorded it has done so from vinyl too, only they dont have the legal right to be sharing it. Simple as....
Oh, and none of the above is an excuse for clipping. Thats caused by sloppy recording or over boosting the files volume.
Also, "Filesharing" and "illegal downloading" mean the same thing if the files you are sharing are not yours to share. If you rob a bank and put the money outside and give it to people for free, you still robbed the bank. You cant win that argument whichever way you turn. It is not a defence to say "but if I hadn't robbed it, I would never have liked money as much" or "everybody else was robbing it so I thought it was fine" or even "**** you, I dont care". You will still be branded a theif - thats just how it is, its not a personal attack.
My opinion of file sharing is perhaps more progressive than most people, and I prefer to deal with the world the way it is rather than the way I would like it to be. Kev Nu Energy is one of the safest guys in the business, but my conclusion to the illegal download debate is different to his. |
| raindance-rob |
in DjSamination's defense you only need to upload *******s on one site & other ppl will upload it onto other sites, i found this when i uploaded some old dimension fm sets (the former owner of dimension fm was happy to see his old sets on sites) on a site, i now know that them uploads are on over 5 sites, although i only put them one to one. |
| djepi |
Just out of intrest DjSamination, roughly how much do you think you've spent over the years on hardcore singles/albums etc etc? |
| Samination |
Since april, I've bought 19 vinyls + 4 that's delivering atm, 3 cd albums (singles, not mixed), and about 200 mp3/wav (which is fairly modest, since I've accumilated about 1060 since late 2004).
most of those vinyls where makina, so they are about 7 pound each, and then the UK Hardcore are the usual £4.5, but some where at £2.50, so I'll say 3.50 for these
11 x 7 + 4 x 7 = 77 + 28 = £105
8 x 3.5 = £28
Total Vinyl: £133
MP3's are abit harder to count, since i've bought them from various sites like IMOdownload, NuEnergy/HardBeatStore,trackitdown and serious sounds, but average prices would be aroun £1.50
243 x 1,50 ~ £360
CD's
12 + 8 + ~5 = £25 (2 Electronica Exposed CD's + Greatest Hardcore)
Vinyl: £133
MP3: £360
CD: £25
Total All: just around £510 to £520 |
| raindance-rob |
i dont know why everyones kicking off you'v all downloaded from file sharing sites so aint you just being hipacritacel ? |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
i dont know why everyones kicking off you'v all downloaded from file sharing sites so aint you just being hipacritacel ?
I might have sounded like a hypocrit, but that might have been poor selection of words from me. I don't try to deny that I fileshare/fileshared, nor do i try to defend my actions. I only defend myself when people blame me for making a mix out of illegally gotten tracks... but in the end, It's illegal to put them on websites for download, grayzone or not. and that goes for everyone (except those who's gotten 100% permission from [c] holders and/or actually owns the [c] to all the tracks used) |
| raindance-rob |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
i dont know why everyones kicking off you'v all downloaded from file sharing sites so aint you just being hipacritacel ?
I might have sounded like a hypocrit, but that might have been poor selection of words from me. I don't try to deny that I fileshare/fileshared, nor do i try to defend my actions. I only defend myself when people blame me for making a mix out of illegally gotten tracks... but in the end, It's illegal to put them on websites for download, grayzone or not. and that goes for everyone (except those who's gotten 100% permission from [c] holders and/or actually owns the [c] to all the tracks used)
agreed mate, everyones done it & unlike everyone else you havent tried to bs cuz ya chatting on this site & fair play to ya for that :o)
|
| djepi |
Sounds like you've invested a lot of your own hard earned cash back into the scene. I doubt you'll go to hell. |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by djepi:
Sounds like you've invested a lot of your own hard earned cash back into the scene. I doubt you'll go to hell.
Oh yes, I will go to hell for other reasons ;P |
| Lilley |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
agreed mate, everyones done it & unlike everyone else you havent tried to bs cuz ya chatting on this site & fair play to ya for that :o)
everyone? |
| raindance-rob |
look most ppl on here have if their being honest |
| __CMC__ |
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
agreed mate, everyones done it & unlike everyone else you havent tried to bs cuz ya chatting on this site & fair play to ya for that :o)
everyone?
If you are saying that you have never breached copyright laws regarding file sharing let me be the first to say i believe you are talking sh*t:)
You should be working in burger king cause i'd sure love fries with that whopper:P |
| raindance-rob |
nite how i said everyone |
| luweiqd |
Ok. Now I am probably quite different to a lot of people on this site. For a start I started listening to hardcore in 1991. I went to a couple of raves early on, lots of trance events in the late 90s, and then nothing for pretty much 10 years now. But I've been listening to hardcore non-stop for 16 years. No-one I know likes hardcore, and very few people know I like it either. Like it? Love it (like the rest of yah...)
So how much money have I put into the hardcore 'industry' in exchange for 16 years of excellent music? Probably 30 odd CD packs, before that tapes from record shops. I never bought vinyl. I can't have spent more than 500 pounds in total, e.g. about 30 quid a year. A few years back I downloaded stuff onto my computer from Napster, nowadays I just listen to the hardcore stream from DM.com, or DJ mixes available on websites (including NEC when it was there). So I've been having a free ride for 10 years or more...
In some ways hardcore seems to be going from strength to strength in 07 - well certainly the music is still ROCKING and there is so much new stuff and it still all sounds AWESOME to me. So there's not an absence of talent, right. And from I can see, it's really spreading roots deep in North America, being well established all over Europe, Australia, Canada, etc. But I get Kev Energy's point that the people who are actually leading, directing, the main contributors (people like him) aren't necessarily having an easy ride of it in terms of moneeeee.
Then have a look at what is happening in commercial parts of the music industry - no-one actually makes money from 'music' anymore - it's coming from the tours, from the T-shirts, from the 'marketing' [the Stones keep on rocking into their Seventies]. Is there a hardcore equivalent to this, eg making money not from the music but from a corollary ? OK so a lot of people at raves are 'passing through' and move onto other forms of music, but a lot of people have got a deep connection with hardcore which lives on even as they grow up and onwards (people like me). I've had a free ride but I'd have happily paid for it if it was easy to pay and the free option wasn't more accessible!
Actually ironically, I'll end up paying for things only when the music suddenly becomes less accessible (and I won't mind paying as I'd have worked hard to access the damn stuff).
Good luck Kev, keep up the good work and I hope it works out for you.
|
| raindance-rob |
iv been into hardcore for 13 years u'v beaten me by 3 years lol |
| NeXuS |
quote:
Originally posted by raindancerob:
clip
Comeon raindancerob dont clutter and already long-ass thread with useless posts...
I fully understand where your coming from luweiqd, alot of the money made in the music industry these days are not only from music but merchandise & tours. The talent is out there but unfortunately to get a decent income from anything other than the music itself you have to have a name for yourself, meaning the ravers know you and will come out to your events. Most of the talent is running more "underground" than the big labels and with our already limited fan base its hard to get people's names & music heard.
It seems to me things need to change drastically to match the times we live in, where we can basically get anything off the net for free if we look hard enough. I have not downloaded a single song illegaly since I was probably 13 years old (Ive had some bad expriences with p2p & Im a huge supporter of buying your music).
Downloading is never going to stop, we arn't going to be able to manipulate somthing so massive to our advatage BUT we CAN manipulate ourselves and our scene to our advantage. p2p networks are an amazing way to advertise yourself, people have become "internet" famous over the weekend because of these p2p networks.
Some things other artists have done is flood the net with tracks edited from the original that they feel ok about people sharing. That in turn builds their fan-base which could get more traffic to their site or recordlabel site who just might purchase and item or two that they cannot get through the net... |
| nrXic |
I'm glad Kevin Energy brought this up. I know it's not the first time, but any added introspective can help build up to a solution.
I've been thinking about this for a while now, as part of an assignment for my Entrepreneurship class was come up with feasibility studies for a handful of ideas, one of my ideas was releasing an album of my own music. The end result was a 200 word spiel on the feasibility of the idea, an actual feasibility document would have been a lot longer, and I think after all the reading I've done for that assignment I could do a larger one. Anyways...
Keep in mind that I'm pretty tired right now, my grammar/spelling will probably suck.
Since it was a business class, the only thing that matters is getting a good profit margin and making sure I can push volume, and due to that it seemed like the way the scene operates wasn't going to cut it. Keep in mind, I'm in a place in Canada where there isn't a "scene" at all, it's still hard to import CDs from music stores (for some unknown reason), and not many people listen to (or even know of) this music.
Another hurdle I faced was that my music is not really mix friendly in terms of content. It's still got poor production values ("mastered" over my Sony headphones), still is cheesy, and some of it is depressing (sadcore ftw). So I figured that I didn't need 8 bars of mix friendly portions of my tracks, and that they should be released as radio edits that target the consumer and not DJs. Now, I had my own reasoning, but I think a good argument could be made for HHC producers to do that same. I mention this now so that you can get a good understanding of why my target demographic is how I'll describe it, but I think that this same reasoning could be applied to pro-HHC producers.
Before I get into the target market, I'll briefly go over the proposed product: a 10-12 track album w/ a variety of radio-edit hardcore tracks. HHC, Freeform, Gabber, whatever label you would want to apply to them. Quite simply the same sort of stuff (and variety) you would see on a Bonkers compilation.
Anyways, I saw the target market consisting of current HHC listeners, and new listeners (which in Canada, there is a lot of potential for). Note that "DJs" were not considered for my target market (not for this album, they could get the single they want by buying the track individually). From anecdotal evidence and my own observations, I get the impression that most HHC listeners pirate their music, moreso that most music listeners. It is a growing problem among all genres of music, but EDM seems to be most affected by this, and to a greater degree. The only way for producers to make a living off of this is because they get so big, that the small percentage of listeners that actually buy the music provide a big enough cut to survive. Couple that with the fact that they may also DJ and make money off of live performances. My brother is involved with the hardcore punk scene (hardcore runs in our genes :D) and it seems that there is a common knowledge that hardcore punk bands make little money off of it, that many of them wouldn't dare download stuff from their favorite bands. There are a lot of reasons for this (I won't go into this now, but for an example, there are faces attached to the music), but it seems the international HHC scene doesn't feel the same way. They think that someone else is paying for it and the artist will make their money somehow, whereas punks know that their brand of music is hanging by a thread and their favorite bands would disband if they didn't buy that one record that just came out. Now, not all of them think like this, but I think a far larger percentage do (as compared to EDM fans).
So if a large percentage of the existing fanbase would pirate, I would still target those who do (and fashion my pricing to encourage more to purchase the album), but look at perhaps getting a new audience for the music. With indie bands doing so well, it seems that people are more open to new types of music. To do this I would have to accomplish a few things, start DJing for one, get a few videos done for my music (Canadian government offers tens of thousands of dollars for artists wanting to make music videos), target local/national music magazines (far easier than most people think), and some few innovative things that I won't mention here, heheh (ok, I'll mention one that I think labels should be doing at this point, send demo CDs to movie/television/videogame producers and their respective companies. I'm not kidding. Next time they want to depict a "rave" in their show, have your music at no cost to them. Free music in this regard could mean in a lot of missed profits, but my issue is with exposure, and for me at this stage that would be most important to me, but I do believe that HHC needs more exposure as well. I suppose this has a far greater chance at success in places like Canada, rather than in the US or the UK.).
I did go over start up costs, and I gather that this isn't an issue at hand for established producers in the UK so I won't go into it. For small time producers like me they are dirt cheap (I'd get some monitors, buy some VSTs I've been eyeing, get Ruffage to master all my tracks in the end; and again the Canadian government helps with tax-write offs for musicians.)
After the start up cost, the largest cost are my variable costs in the form of manufacturing and distribution. I couldn't raise the amount of capital required to do this, so my only option is to be signed onto a label if I wanted actual CDs sold at retail. For many reasons I didn't want to do that (if I could to begin with, it would be near impossible without a previous success on my resume), so the best option seemed to be an online only distribution method where the point of sale was on a website and the disc would be shipped to the consumer. But then I looked at the market penetration of mp3 players, and it looks like personal CD players are on their way out (almost completely on the way out) and mp3 players are in. If people bought it on discs, the first thing they would do is put it on their iPod. So selling the music primarily in a digital format does not only reduced my variable costs (from actual discs/labels to simply bandwidth), but it's also the most sensical. After looking at the various online music distribution sites out there, it seems that people have embraced them. Apple doesn't release actual figures but of the entire market it seems iTunes has 70% of the download market (largely fueled by its 80% dominance of the portable mp3 player market). Now, I've seen many stories of successes and failures for artists going this route. In these cases (both success and failure), they deal with mainstream music. So underground music poses and even greater risk. But risk at what cost? Very little to me. It has to be noted, I am piggy-backing on a distribution system that will take a cut of my revenues, but it does provide more exposure than a personal site. I could set up my own "shopping cart" on my own website, but I don't get anywhere near the amount of traffic iTunes does. Plus, once you get a decent amount of success over iTunes, that success grows exponentially, not so with a personal site.
My SWOT analysis (Strength/Weakness/Opportunity/Threat) would differ that of pro-Producers, but I'll try a brief analysis of their situation.
Strength: Quality music. People involved in these businesses know their industry/scene very well. People involved in these businesses have easy access to music related resources. Successful from a mind-share perspective (HHC artists and labels are known to many HHC listeners) within their marketshare.
Weakness: Niche market from a macro perspective. People involved in these businesses may not have the appropriate contacts for non-music related resources (ie. see N.E.C.'s issues with the website). Target market ill-defined or not catered to (DJs are the ones primarily buying the music. Compilation CDs are the only way for consumers to buy music, and in that case, the revenues are split up in many ways).
Opportunities: Chance to expand the market. To go from niche to mainstream. You are seeing some genres like DnB (at over 160 bpm) being featured in automobile ads. Hardcore has potential (without needing to sacrifice its roots). Create a product more ideal for the end user and sold in an easily accessible fashion could mean more sales within your existing marketshare (ie. exclusive radio edit digital downloads).
Threats: Piracy. Selling in a format that is easily stolen and leeched (I was gonna say "shared" but that sort of word doesn't convey the harm it does, from now on I am gonna stick with "leeched", heheh) seems a bit odd. iTunes DRM can be easily circumvented and then distributed, but the hope is to reach an larger audience so that sales can reach a point where there is enough revenue to sustain production of music. I don't think that other hardcore labels could be considered a threat...as it stands if one label does well in this regard, it's good for everyone.
Keep in mind: I COULD BE WRONG IN MY ANALYSIS AND COMPLETELY OFF. Most of this is from my remote perspective on the scene, and mostly geared to what it would take for me to be successful primarily locally and nationally. I know that if I made a music video, that I can get it on Canadian television. For the Brits, it may be near impossible. I just wanted to post this to re-affirm what others have been saying, and to show that ideas like radio-edits of tracks and digital downloads pose great benefits. Putting all your eggs in one basket (ie. iTunes, and ignoring others such as Rhapsody or your own site) is in most cases a bad idea. But on the other hand, exclusive distribution may get you some other benefits (such as promotion from their end). Say if a collection of hardcore labels went to Rhapsody (RealNetwork's iTunes alternative) and said, "We'll stay exclusive to you guys if you promote our scene/genre", RealNetworks may bite (they need any competitive advantage they can get over Apple).
Anyways, maybe I'm ranting, I dunno, I'm pretty tired right now. :P I know I'll wake up and read this and be like "WTF". :)
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| nrXic |
Holy crap WTF did I do. |
| Samination |
you typed hellova lot, thats what happened :P |
| luminate |
nrxic... u sound pretty fcuking switched on about all this n look like u've given it a lot of thought n done more then ur share of research...
if i ever need some marketing done, i'll give u a call ay :P |
| NeXuS |
nrXic that was a great late night read haha.
Bump this, everyone take a gander again.
It's unfortunate this thread got cluttered with too many people flaming and arguing between eachother... |
| Samination |
Yea, but with that said. Anyone has a different opinion.
Someone blames piracy.
Someone blames people for making mixes downloadable (like me).
Someone blames bootlegs.
Someone blames tape/cd-packs.
Someone blames commercial shit/one label compilations.
... and so forth |
| NeXuS |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
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Im not trying to blame anyone and I think we need to stop finger pointing. Blaming a cause is not going to change anything, we are where we are because we are lol, that simple.
My views are to try and better educate the listeners who want to learn more about the scene, if people dont want to listen then they will keep doing what they want. Then they can make better educated decisions because they will know who downloading tracks will affect. This is a more indirect way.
A more direct way would be to change the way the music is "delivered" if you will. Read my previous post for more info. |
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