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T O P I C R E V I E W
The Dopeman
what are everyone's thoughts on this??
personally i don't really think it's a good idea i mean sure it would be nice to be an independant country and all but does scotland really "need" independance? why can't we just have more powers in scottish government it just seems like too much hassle imho just keep scotland part of the united kingdom but with no interference from those stupid little english toffs down in london (no offence to any othe englishman on here btw just the knobs that run the country)
i would say around 90% of scots don't and have never classed themselves as british and never will i've never but i still have english friends and sometimes go on holiday to blackpool etc
there are a few things i hate that may not seem like too big of a deal to other people but one is the "british" national anthem is god save the queen which is also the english national anthem that to me says to people outside the uk that the whole island is england (one of the worst examples i can think of is 5 years ago i went to france and got friendly with a bulgarian girl and i told her i was from scotland and she said "oh where about in england is that")
another thing is whenever i go down south nobody can understand a word i say (AND HARDLY ANY SHOPS SELL IRN BRU!!!!!) some people can understand me but the majority can't that pisses me of a little they should teach scottish words in every school in england imo save us all the hassle of repeating ourselve or talking differently that kinda bugs me aswell having to change the way i talk
one thing that i still find funny is if i'm talking to one of my mates in scots we get people giving us funny looks at times (kinda like when a puppy tilts it's head when you ask it a question)
i don't have a clue if any of this made sense but i'm bored and have nothing to do
The drunken scotsman
I'm also against it, I dont see what benefit we would get from it and as the old saying goes 'If its not broken, don't try to fix it'. Although some people may disagree about it not being broken they should ask themselves how scotland being independent will make a difference to this.
Also I don't like Alex Salmond and wouldn't want him to be in complete charge of the country. They are trying to lower the voting age so that 16 year olds can vote on this one which I don't think is a very good thing as a lot of them will just think independance is a great idea having just watched braveheart or something and they won't really know what the proper consequences are. For example if we left the UK there is a big chance that we would have to change currency to the euro which as everyone knows is ****ed at the moment. But never mind ....FREEEEEEDOM!!!
The Dopeman
alex salmond is a knob lol i just don't see what good can come of being independant surely being part of the uk is better than going it alone there was talk of scotland keeping the pound after becoming independant but i just don't see how it could work
thats another thing that pisses me off about the english you refuse to accept scottish money!!!! that gets on my nerves lol i go to a shop for a bottle of juice and they won't fecking take my money so i usually have to ask someone for change and give them the scottish note and hope they don't realise lol
Triquatra
most places where I live accept scottish money - but then I'm only about 30mins away from the border :P
whilst I was in the states I came across people who were violently opposed to what they thought was the UK's stronghold on northern ireland - they didn't quite understand that the reason NI are still part of the UK is that there are many there who WANT to be part of the UK still...unaware that most people in the UK weren't bothered if NI stayed or left. Its rather down to the people who live there. Same folk were adamant they were Irish even though they were 100% born and bred in America and had never even set foot in ireland.
The Dopeman
tbh there are far more benifits for scotland if they stay part of the uk than if we were to go it alone we should have more powers tho that seems like the best option for everyone i pray that alex salmond dnt get his way because if it means me going another 9 months without any money (i had to go for a medical about my dyspraxia to prove i was entitled to income support and they ****ed me over by 1 point and the doctor that done the test admitted she didn't know what dyspraxia was) then i'll hunt the prick down and make him pay lol
Triquatra
You had any post yet dopeman?
The Dopeman
oh shit a forgot about that yep got ot yesterday thanks again for giving it
Triquatra
No problem sir, enjoy!
Warnman
I wonder what the U. K. will do without the scottish petrol pounds income and the delicious whiskey.
The Dopeman
quote:Originally posted by Triquatra:
No problem sir, enjoy!
oh i shall...only one slight problem i ripped sharkey's cd but inner sanctum only ripped to 50% and i'm rippin the cd in wav format (to keep the quality as high as possible so i can merge it into one whole mix for when i play GT5) could anyone possibly upload that track in wav format (i would use one of the other cd's but there in glasgow in a box in my sisters attic lol)
jenks
Ultimately it would make everyone involved weaker and less prosperous. The only people who will gain anything substantive from this are the SNP. People talk about the North Sea oil revenue, but most years that doesn't even cancel out the public sector cash pumped north from the rest of the UK into Scotland anyway.
Triquatra
The silver edition CDs are identical to all the other Bonkers 3 cds - so if you have already ripped your copy of the original bonkers 3 that would do it.
Craigavon raver
Well tbh i'm not praticuarly bothered about scotlands bid for independence, i'm more concerned about irish independence, which for me is a must! And i beleive it eventualy will happen
GrahamC
Scottish independence is a disaster waiting to happen.
At the moment we have a greasy first minister busy trying to paint Braveheart and Disney's Brave as factual educational movies rather than cold hard facts.
He says we will keep the pound, if we separate then that's not our choice, if Scotland want to join Europe they won't take us unless we are on the Euro.
Salmond thinks he owns the North Sea and he is going to cash in on that, that is in no way been decided.
What happens to the Army, the NHS, My UK Passport, schooling, road tax, UK Driving License??
If they want me to vote on any of this then Salmond and his crew need to start informing us and informing us properly on how it is going to work or it will be a flat no from me.
He has already been caught out telling lies, making rubbish up etc. Facts, we need FACTS!!!
jenks
quote:Originally posted by Craigavon raver:
Well tbh i'm not praticuarly bothered about scotlands bid for independence, i'm more concerned about irish independence, which for me is a must! And i beleive it eventualy will happen
Eh? You mean a United Ireland? I doubt it, not when even a large proportion of Catholics in Nothern Ireland would prefer to stay part of the UK. It's probably less likely now than it's ever been.
TheOneNOnly
Scotland wouldn't be able to survive on a global stage if they were independent. If anything their independence would be around an assortment of trade agreements with Britain that the independence would be essentially nill.
The Dopeman
i think if we do get independance we will no doubt struggle and come crawling back to england on our hands and knees saying "we're sorry...we ****ed up" the world is just in too bad a state for us to go it alone maybe in the next 50 years or so we could but right now we have no chance
Smoogie
Not a good idea. If Scotland leaves the UK they will be the land boarder for England so they could become subject to 'invasion' from terroists unless they wish to remain in the British Army. Also even though most of the UK is ran by Englishmen in London the last Prime Minster was Scottish and look where that left us lol
Also English tourists wishing to go to Scotland would now have to provide a passport for crossing the boarder and same with Scots wishing to come to England, as you said, Dopeman you have been to Blackpool before and it was said to be a popular destination for Scots. There are alot of Scots living in England & English in Scotland who would also be against Independence & I know alot of people board in England whos parents where Scottish.
jenks
quote:Originally posted by Smoogie:
Not a good idea. If Scotland leaves the UK they will be the land boarder for England so they could become subject to 'invasion' from terroists unless they wish to remain in the British Army.
Tony Blair was also Scottish, by the way...
The Dopeman
quote:
Tony Blair was also Scottish, by the way...
is he...i've learned something today :)
i always thought he was english because of his accent, still a better PM than gordon brown which btw i think the reason he was told to fcuk off out of government was the fact he was a dreary lookin old sod who could make the sun cry
i met him once in kirkcaldy (where he's from) he seemed nice but i literally shat myself when he smiled lol he is one ugly ****er lol
let's just hope cameron and his bumboy cleggypoo can persuade the rest of scotland not to follow alex salmonds loony idea of an independant scotland coz if we do go fully independant we are up shit creek without a paddle and sinking fast imo
Smoogie
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
i always thought he was english because of his accent, still a better PM than gordon brown which btw i think the reason he was told to fcuk off out of government was the fact he was a dreary lookin old sod who could make the sun cry
i met him once in kirkcaldy (where he's from) he seemed nice but i literally shat myself when he smiled lol he is one ugly ****er lol
let's just hope cameron and his bumboy cleggypoo can persuade the rest of scotland not to follow alex salmonds loony idea of an independant scotland coz if we do go fully independant we are up shit creek without a paddle and sinking fast imo
I really hope you Scottish don't think we all talk like that lol Im not sure of Blair's background I know he was educated at a Scottish school but also read he went to Uni in Oxford (England) and Gordon Brown didn't sound that Scottish either.
The only problem I had with Blair was he was always jetting off to The States to see his boyfreind George Bush (not much better than Brown in fact) & neglected his own county (The UK) so we didn't upset the good ole Americans
Also I heard that glorious old Wales have a party wanting independence as well and are being supported by the SNP. So The Scottish don't mind being mates with The Welsh but want F-all to do with England? Odd
Craigavon raver
quote:Originally posted by jenks:
quote:Originally posted by Craigavon raver:
Well tbh i'm not praticuarly bothered about scotlands bid for independence, i'm more concerned about irish independence, which for me is a must! And i beleive it eventualy will happen
Eh? You mean a United Ireland? I doubt it, not when even a large proportion of Catholics in Nothern Ireland would prefer to stay part of the UK. It's probably less likely now than it's ever been.
Yeh a united ireland, and where or how do you think a large proportion of catholics in nothern ireland want to stay in the u.k? and its far from less likely, its a certainty!
Ken Masters
The English would be screwed without our north sea oil and by that I mean the exporting of Buckfast.
jenks
quote:Originally posted by Craigavon raver:
Yeh a united ireland, and where or how do you think a large proportion of catholics in nothern ireland want to stay in the u.k? and its far from less likely, its a certainty!
It's what the polls always show. Protestants and Catholics are around 50/50 in Northern Ireland now, while the pro-Union vote is always in the high 70's. It's never going to happen, and getting less likely all the time as the sectarian sentiment dies down. No one in their right mind would choose Ireland over the UK as things are at the moment. An independent Northern Ireland is probably more likely than a United Ireland.
quote:Originally posted by Fire Shadow:
The English would be screwed without our north sea oil and by that I mean the exporting of Buckfast.
We actually export it to you ;)
Breakbeat Jon
quote:Originally posted by Fire Shadow:
The English would be screwed without our north sea oil and by that I mean the exporting of Buckfast.
Lol, i've been on a daytrip (pilgrimage) to Buckfast abbey to see how it's made. Good day out.
DarrenJ
billy connolly's for president
"we got 1 billion dollars trade with swizterland, its fooken brilliant"
Craigavon raver
quote:Originally posted by jenks:
quote:Originally posted by Craigavon raver:
Yeh a united ireland, and where or how do you think a large proportion of catholics in nothern ireland want to stay in the u.k? and its far from less likely, its a certainty!
It's what the polls always show. Protestants and Catholics are around 50/50 in Northern Ireland now, while the pro-Union vote is always in the high 70's. It's never going to happen, and getting less likely all the time as the sectarian sentiment dies down. No one in their right mind would choose Ireland over the UK as things are at the moment. An independent Northern Ireland is probably more likely than a United Ireland.
quote:Originally posted by Fire Shadow:
The English would be screwed without our north sea oil and by that I mean the exporting of Buckfast.
We actually export it to you ;)
Well i'll think you'll find your wrong on a few counts! protestants and catholics aren't on a 50/50 ratio and i'll think you'll find that the protestant vote is on the decline every election! while the catholic vote increases or stays at a pretty high turnout! thats why the d.u.p and u.u.p are running scared and have even sent out unionist unity candidates twice in recent elections in 2 constitunicies to try and get pro union representitives in government but republicans are still kicking there ass! so at some point in the future stormount will be a catholic run republican government! which will eventually = bye bye britain!
jenks
I'm not wrong. It was revealed in the 2011 UK census data that went public not so long ago. Sounds like you've been listening to some dodgy propaganda.
"But on the other side of the religious divide, a substantial 38% of Catholics also favoured remaining within the UK - three percentage points more than the number who backed a united Ireland." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345997
Charco
I'd be wary of polls coming from the bbc. 38% of how many catholics? 1000? 2000? 50? Very much doubt that all catholics were asked....not that religion should have anything to do with it in the first place.....especially where a poll is concerned. There is a growing number of other religions and those who don't follow religion at all.
Triquatra was spot on with what he said: the main people who want NI to stay part of the uk are those who classify themselves as british there and a handful of bnp supporters throughout England. The majority of other English people aren't interested - Scotland is different in that respect imo as the lands are physically joined.
Also on what Craigavon Raver mentioned: On a recent election for mid-Tyrone where I come from, the unionists fronted a joint unionist candidate to try take the seat from nationalists (No other reason) - this failed miserably with Sinn Fein keeping the seat in a strong election win.
The thing that is most confusing regarding Ireland, is that on the Irish proclamation - It is for an Ireland of equals, regardless of race or creed. The northern state was a 'protestant state for protestant people' until recent years....and has now become more equal....then when you have democratic decisions that don't go the way of the unionists (City Hall flag???) they all go ape-shit and riot for months.....Equality anyone??
An All-Ireland for ALL people.....it's the only option. Let the whole country sort itself out rather than the republic and the north try to do it separately.
The Dopeman
quote:Originally posted by Smoogie:
Not a good idea. If Scotland leaves the UK they will be the land boarder for England so they could become subject to 'invasion' from terroists
not really just look at the last 2 attempts the terrorist who attacked glasgow airport got his head kicked in any terrorist who wants to "try" and terrorize scotland should think twice we'll kick the living shit out of them lol
quote:Originally posted by Warnman :
the delicious whiskey.
whisky can make even the most timid of people turn into the incredible hulk lol
Elliott
Honestly, what is the main argument for independence according to the Scots which support it?
I genuinely can't see any compelling arguments for it that are rooted in anything other than irrational hatred for the English. The realistic truth of the matter is that the current standard of living in Scotland would be unsustainable in an independent state.
Personally, besides enjoying the occasional joke about Scots and alcohol or Scots and unemployment, I don't have any particular bad feelings towards Scotland at all. I'm not even bitter about the fact that we're effectively making a loss from Scotland being a part of Britain -- although the general anti-British, anti-England sentiments do make it a lot harder to swallow.
latininxtc
I'm surprised that no one has tried reviving this topic, because apparently it's finally going to be put up to a vote in the fall. And JK Rowling has come out in support of anti-independence
what do you mean "apparently"?....the vote that is on it's way was the very reason this topic was started.
There isn't that much of a buzz around the scottish vote in England - and I live on the border
the attitude of most this side of the border seems to be
"whatever, let em do it, it's their choice, what's for dinner?"
that, coupled with the fact politics just doesn't get talked about much on these music forums, is the reason why there isn't much of a buzz on this topic.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by Triquatra:
There isn't that much of a buzz around the scottish vote in England - and I live on the border
the attitude of most this side of the border seems to be
"whatever, let em do it, it's their choice, what's for dinner?"
I spend a lot of time in England because of my job and this is my exact experience. English don't seem to be too fussed either way. In Scotland the debate is picking up a lot of momentum. Seems to have been a big sway towards the yes vote in the last few months.
I'm still very much in the no camp. Jk Rowling is right, there are still a lot of legitimate questions with no answers forthcoming, just a load of ******** about how everything will be fine. I hope to god that the no vote wins convincingly in order to put this to bed once and for all. Even if it's a marginal no vote then a lot of people will continue to bang on about it until another vote takes place. I also believe that a lot of voters will be voting for independence because they don't like the English, which is just wrong.
Triquatra
It's an interesting one for me, because we've been looking at moving (myself back to the Isles of Scilly, my wife wanting to stay more in the local area)
but if we chose to move just 30mins up the road....does that mean I get to be scottish in a yes vote? :D
won't happen though, my wife would never let us move there as she knows I have a thing about ladies with Scottish accents :D
djDMS
Definitely means a lot more to people in Scotland than us in the civilised world ;-)
The impact on pretty much everything will be felt a lot more up there, I'd be surprised if we even noticed much difference down here if they did go independent.
If it does happen, i already have my name down to help rebuild Hadrians wall :-P
The drunken scotsman
So the vote is this Thursday coming. Can't get away from it up here, campaigners everywhere. Polls are showing it to be neck and neck, almost straight down the line. Have to admit I'm becoming a bit concerned. If it's a yes vote we will be entering independence with marginally under half of the small population against it. There is a lot of divide and disruption just now and it will be like this for a while yet regardless of Thursdays outcome.
latininxtc
Scotland may have its most important endorsement for independence yet!
Haha I seen that, quite funny. Disagree with the ginger prick though ;-)
The Dopeman
"THAT'S NOT A TATTOO IT'S A BIRTHMARK" best line ever :D
Smoogie
Alex Salmond is the most daft thing to happen since Gordon Brown and that is saying a lot
djDMS
Agree with Smoogie on that one.
The man so badly wants to be famous it's embarrassing to watch.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
Agree with Smoogie on that one.
The man so badly wants to be famous it's embarrassing to watch.
Yep. This vote is a major ego-boost to him. Smug, arrogant arsehole. I've heard he will step down as the SNP leader in the event of a no vote which is further incentive to go against his pipe dream vision of a better Scotland.
The Dopeman
devo max is the best all round solution imo seen a yt vid of salmond putting a reporter from the bbc in his place pretty damn well which i found pretty amusing :)
djDMS
He's all about PR and making the right noises though. Wouldn't trust him to run a bath, never mind a country!
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
devo max is the best all round solution imo seen a yt vid of salmond putting a reporter from the bbc in his place pretty damn well which i found pretty amusing :)
Yes it would be. But Cameron made an arse of that when they were agreeing the referendum. He stipulated a simple yes/no vote obviously thinking that it would be a landslide victory for no. And now they're saying that we'll get devo max if it's a no. Major **** up by the UK government because a lot of people have now bought into Salmonds ********.
Imo there is just far too much emotion behind the yes vote and not enough common sense.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
He's all about PR and making the right noises though. Wouldn't trust him to run a bath, never mind a country!
Yes he is. To be fair though, it may not necessarily be him running the country if it's a yes vote. Independance won't come until 18-24 months after the vote, at which point there will be an election to decide who governs us.
Ken Masters
Since moving to England a couple of years ago i've taken a back seat on the whole thing, mostly due to the fact that not having a Scottish address means I don't have the right to vote anyway.
Not really fair that one in my opinion, it's a bit like saying "You've left & chances are you ain't coming back". I've lived in Scotland my whole life, i'm Scottish & proud to be Scottish. Just because an opportunity came along for me & my girlfriend to try something different & gain some life experience doesn't mean i've turned my back on my country & don't care about it's future. I think this act from SNP says a lot about their single minded, overly patriotic approach to politics. Hearts are ruling heads & in my opinion it's a recipe for disaster.
I go HOME & visit my family at least every 2 months & it's been interesting to see how quickly opinions towards independence have changed. When I left the majority of people seemed to be against it, however gradually, & more noticeably on the last trip I made in august, it was quite a shock to see how so many people have changed their minds. Those who were once against it are now completely for it! but it appears that once for it there doesn't seem to be anyone swinging the other way.
As it stands now, I would be seriously surprised if it doesn't go ahead. It's quite sad really, not only do I feel let down by my country for robbing me of my vote but if it does go ahead I don't think i'll ever have the same connection with my home if/when I do return seeing as i had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome. I also genuinely feel a sense of sadness that there's a chance I won't be able to call myself British any more, meaning i'm also losing my connection with the people i've spent the past two years getting to know & growing close to.
jenks
Martin Wolf for the FT
A Yes vote will launch Scotland, and to a lesser extent the UK, into years of uncertainty. Among the biggest doubts are those hanging over the currency. Financial businesses that must be regulated and supported by the UK will flee. Scottish deposit insurance would be as worthless as the Reykjavik-run scheme that failed to cover Icelandic banks in 2008. Cautious Scots must already recognise that the pounds in their bank accounts may end up as something else. Far safer to move the money south.
Confronted with currency uncertainty, banks will need to balance their books within Scotland. This will surely force them to shrink the supply of credit to the Scottish economy. The UK government could try to prevent money from leaving Scotland, but this would require draconian controls, which it will not impose. Either Westminster or the Scottish government could offer to indemnify lenders against currency risks. The UK government will not do that. It will let the credit squeeze happen, blaming it on the Scottish decision. It will be Scotland?s choice, if it can meet the cost.
Scotland can promise that the pound will remain the currency of Scotland. It cannot promise a currency union, however. That takes two parties. Even if the government of the remaining UK is prepared to countenance such a union, there should be a referendum. The only satisfactory terms for the residual UK will be ones that impose very tight limits on the fiscal deficits Scotland can run. It must also insist that financial regulation will be run by the Bank of England, which would nonetheless remain accountable to the UK state alone. Scotland can adopt the pound without a currency union, and so without the back-up of the Bank of England. But this, too, is highly problematic. Scotland would need to build a reserve of sterling that can serve as its monetary base ? by attracting capital inflows or exporting more than it sells abroad for many years. And it would need more than that. If the eurozone crisis has taught us anything, it is that countries without central banks cannot, in a crisis, stabilise the markets for their public debt. Scotland?s share of UK public debt would amount to more than 90 per cent of its gross domestic product ? a perilous position for a country whose debt is denominated in a currency it cannot create freely. Ireland, Portugal and Spain all had far lower public debt ratios before the crisis. Scotland will need a substantial reserve cushion . Accumulating it will be costly.
Alex Salmond, Scotland?s first minister and head of the Yes campaign, will say that if the rest of the UK will not grant Scotland a currency union, Scotland will not take on its share of the UK debt. Not so fast: the negotiations launched by that Yes vote will cover everything. The oil, for example, is not Scottish until the UK agrees. If Scotland repudiates its share of the debt, who says it will get ?its? oil? All this ignores the little fact that Scotland wants to be in the EU. If it does enter (which Spain will surely seek to prevent lest it encourage Catalonian separatists), it might be forced to join the exchange rate mechanism from the beginning. It would then need its own currency and central bank. It could not persist with sterling. Any such shift away from sterling raises big questions. In what currency will existing assets and liabilities be denominated? How will any redenomination occur? What will happen to the currency denomination of the pensions and all other state payments due to Scots?
These negotiations will be complex, bitter and prolonged. However amicably a divorce begins, that is rarely how it ends. It is the safest possible bet that when this process is over, the English will resent the people who repudiated them and the Scots will resent the people who did not give them independence on the terms to which they believed they were entitled. A United Kingdom will give way to a deeply divided island.
The Scots will discover the taste of austerity. Scotland cannot sustain higher taxes than the residual UK; that would drive economic activity away. It will pay a higher interest rate on public debt because its government will be unfamiliar and dependent on unstable oil revenues (almost certainly smaller than Mr Salmond imagines). Fiscal fibs will be exposed.* *By then it will be too late. If the vote is a Yes, it will be forever. But what about a narrow No? That too will be a nightmare. We could then look forward to more referendums. I would have preferred a clean break to that. If Scotland cannot decide firmly in favour of union, let it choose ?independence?. And then, enjoy!"
jenks
quote:Originally posted by Ken Masters:
As it stands now, I would be seriously surprised if it doesn't go ahead.
There have been 61 polls taken this year on the issue, but only 2 of them have shown the Yes vote in front.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by jenks: Martin Wolf for the FT
A Yes vote will launch Scotland, and to a lesser extent the UK, into years of uncertainty. Among the biggest doubts are those hanging over the currency. Financial businesses that must be regulated and supported by the UK will flee. Scottish deposit insurance would be as worthless as the Reykjavik-run scheme that failed to cover Icelandic banks in 2008. Cautious Scots must already recognise that the pounds in their bank accounts may end up as something else. Far safer to move the money south.
Confronted with currency uncertainty, banks will need to balance their books within Scotland. This will surely force them to shrink the supply of credit to the Scottish economy. The UK government could try to prevent money from leaving Scotland, but this would require draconian controls, which it will not impose. Either Westminster or the Scottish government could offer to indemnify lenders against currency risks. The UK government will not do that. It will let the credit squeeze happen, blaming it on the Scottish decision. It will be Scotland?s choice, if it can meet the cost.
Scotland can promise that the pound will remain the currency of Scotland. It cannot promise a currency union, however. That takes two parties. Even if the government of the remaining UK is prepared to countenance such a union, there should be a referendum. The only satisfactory terms for the residual UK will be ones that impose very tight limits on the fiscal deficits Scotland can run. It must also insist that financial regulation will be run by the Bank of England, which would nonetheless remain accountable to the UK state alone. Scotland can adopt the pound without a currency union, and so without the back-up of the Bank of England. But this, too, is highly problematic. Scotland would need to build a reserve of sterling that can serve as its monetary base ? by attracting capital inflows or exporting more than it sells abroad for many years. And it would need more than that. If the eurozone crisis has taught us anything, it is that countries without central banks cannot, in a crisis, stabilise the markets for their public debt. Scotland?s share of UK public debt would amount to more than 90 per cent of its gross domestic product ? a perilous position for a country whose debt is denominated in a currency it cannot create freely. Ireland, Portugal and Spain all had far lower public debt ratios before the crisis. Scotland will need a substantial reserve cushion . Accumulating it will be costly.
Alex Salmond, Scotland?s first minister and head of the Yes campaign, will say that if the rest of the UK will not grant Scotland a currency union, Scotland will not take on its share of the UK debt. Not so fast: the negotiations launched by that Yes vote will cover everything. The oil, for example, is not Scottish until the UK agrees. If Scotland repudiates its share of the debt, who says it will get ?its? oil? All this ignores the little fact that Scotland wants to be in the EU. If it does enter (which Spain will surely seek to prevent lest it encourage Catalonian separatists), it might be forced to join the exchange rate mechanism from the beginning. It would then need its own currency and central bank. It could not persist with sterling. Any such shift away from sterling raises big questions. In what currency will existing assets and liabilities be denominated? How will any redenomination occur? What will happen to the currency denomination of the pensions and all other state payments due to Scots?
These negotiations will be complex, bitter and prolonged. However amicably a divorce begins, that is rarely how it ends. It is the safest possible bet that when this process is over, the English will resent the people who repudiated them and the Scots will resent the people who did not give them independence on the terms to which they believed they were entitled. A United Kingdom will give way to a deeply divided island.
The Scots will discover the taste of austerity. Scotland cannot sustain higher taxes than the residual UK; that would drive economic activity away. It will pay a higher interest rate on public debt because its government will be unfamiliar and dependent on unstable oil revenues (almost certainly smaller than Mr Salmond imagines). Fiscal fibs will be exposed.* *By then it will be too late. If the vote is a Yes, it will be forever. But what about a narrow No? That too will be a nightmare. We could then look forward to more referendums. I would have preferred a clean break to that. If Scotland cannot decide firmly in favour of union, let it choose ?independence?. And then, enjoy!"
Let me give you the standard generic response from Alex Salmond or any single one of his followers to this and any other similar statements..... Scaremongering, we are right you are wrong.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by jenks:
quote:Originally posted by Ken Masters:
As it stands now, I would be seriously surprised if it doesn't go ahead.
There have been 61 polls taken this year on the issue, but only 2 of them have shown the Yes vote in front.
I wouldn't put too much faith in any of the polls although I do feel they give a rough idea. They show an increase in support for the yes vote and this resonates with my personal experience up here in Edinburgh. They take a sample of roughly 1k - 2k people and give results based on that. We have just over 4m voters registered to vote on Thursday so we will see the true outcome soon enough. One thing is for certain, the yes campaign have been much more vocal than the no campaign, both on the streets and on social media. I'm really relying on the so-called 'silent majority' to cross the no box on Thursday although I have my doubts that they exist.
Elipton
The Scottish are a very proud people. The question the referendum asks is whether they have more pride than logic. Pretty much every point for and against has been made, so I'm not going to regurgitate facts/opinions.
I hope they stay in the union, for the benefit for all of us. That said, a country escaping the grasp of Junker would be a big middle finger to the EU. I'm jealous of them for that.
rafferty
Is a big decision for Scotland.
America told us to get lost over 200 years ago and even blew Britain away in a war which they celebrate.
Scotland must be thinking if the U.S.A did fine after independence, why can't they.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by rafferty:
Is a big decision for Scotland.
America told us to get lost over 200 years ago and even blew Britain away in a war which they celebrate.
Scotland must be thinking if the U.S.A did fine after independence, why can't they.
The main difference being that Scotland is not much bigger than most single states in the US. And our population is 5m, which is half of the London population alone.
Triquatra
From the people I've talked to, they're a little peeved that the government are bribing Scotland to stay in the union, by offering them more powers and money..... which the rest of the UK haven't had a chance to say "yes" to. They feel the negotiation should have happened after the referendum in case of a "no" vote and have included the whole of the UK.
rafferty
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by rafferty:
Is a big decision for Scotland.
America told us to get lost over 200 years ago and even blew Britain away in a war which they celebrate.
Scotland must be thinking if the U.S.A did fine after independence, why can't they.
The main difference being that Scotland is not much bigger than most single states in the US. And our population is 5m, which is half of the London population alone.
There are small countries in Europe which seem to be doing ok. Denmark and Finland both have populations of about 5 million.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by rafferty:
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by rafferty:
Is a big decision for Scotland.
America told us to get lost over 200 years ago and even blew Britain away in a war which they celebrate.
Scotland must be thinking if the U.S.A did fine after independence, why can't they.
The main difference being that Scotland is not much bigger than most single states in the US. And our population is 5m, which is half of the London population alone.
There are small countries in Europe which seem to be doing ok. Denmark and Finland both have populations of about 5 million.
And there are others not doing so well like Greece and Ireland. Point I was making is that I doubt many are drawing comparisons with the US.
It's all a massive gamble.
djDMS
They shouldn't be offering Scotland shit!
I have no say in what happens there. At this rate, independent or not they'll still end up with too much 'power'
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
They shouldn't be offering Scotland shit!
I have no say in what happens there. At this rate, independent or not they'll still end up with too much 'power'
Don't get me wrong as I'm an avid no supporter, but it's attitudes like this that brought the entire vote about in the first place.
Triquatra
I think what Dean means is that if the rest of the country isn't being offered something, then Scotland shouldn't be either?
If I have a chocolate bar I give it out equally to my kids and wife and for myself - I don't just give it all to one child because they threaten me. ;)
They're already talking about "English Parliament" now...not long till Cornwall get's one too! :P
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by Triquatra:
I think what Dean means is that if the rest of the country isn't being offered something, then Scotland shouldn't be either?
If I have a chocolate bar I give it out equally to my kids and wife and for myself - I don't just give it all to one child because they threaten me. ;)
They're already talking about "English Parliament" now...not long till Cornwall get's one too! :P
Which I agree with to an extent. It's all to do with history though, Scotland used to be a country in it own right until it formed part of the union and (some would argue) effectively handed power over to the English. That's where the emotion largely comes from that's one of the main driving forces behind the yes campaign.
djDMS
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
They shouldn't be offering Scotland shit!
I have no say in what happens there. At this rate, independent or not they'll still end up with too much 'power'
Don't get me wrong as I'm an avid no supporter, but it's attitudes like this that brought the entire vote about in the first place.
Yeah, that was a bit more abrupt than i intended cos i was rushed!
What Rowan said is pretty much what i meant.
As the vote gets nearer, the NO side of things have just started throwing all kinds of offers to the people to try and sway them without any thought for what the rest of the UK wants.
If the YES vote wins, it should be for the right reasons - and not just a protest vote against the government.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
They shouldn't be offering Scotland shit!
I have no say in what happens there. At this rate, independent or not they'll still end up with too much 'power'
Don't get me wrong as I'm an avid no supporter, but it's attitudes like this that brought the entire vote about in the first place.
Yeah, that was a bit more abrupt than i intended cos i was rushed!
What Rowan said is pretty much what i meant.
As the vote gets nearer, the NO side of things have just started throwing all kinds of offers to the people to try and sway them without any thought for what the rest of the UK wants.
If the YES vote wins, it should be for the right reasons - and not just a protest vote against the government.
Agreed, it is a major panic from the no side and they seem to be saying anything with little thought of consequences in the rest of the uk after the referendum. They clearly didn't think it would be this close. To be fair, neither did I.
The problem is that for a lot of yes voters it's not the right reasons. You wouldn't believe some of the 'logic' I've heard up here!
DJ D-Luc-D
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
They shouldn't be offering Scotland shit!
I have no say in what happens there. At this rate, independent or not they'll still end up with too much 'power'
Don't get me wrong as I'm an avid no supporter, but it's attitudes like this that brought the entire vote about in the first place.
Yeah, that was a bit more abrupt than i intended cos i was rushed!
What Rowan said is pretty much what i meant.
As the vote gets nearer, the NO side of things have just started throwing all kinds of offers to the people to try and sway them without any thought for what the rest of the UK wants.
If the YES vote wins, it should be for the right reasons - and not just a protest vote against the government.
Agreed, it is a major panic from the no side and they seem to be saying anything with little thought of consequences in the rest of the uk after the referendum. They clearly didn't think it would be this close. To be fair, neither did I.
The problem is that for a lot of yes voters it's not the right reasons. You wouldn't believe some of the 'logic' I've heard up here!
My dad's been working in Scotland and he told me that his taxi driver was voting yes. When he asked him why, he said "Well I just fancy a change really".
latininxtc
quote:Originally posted by rafferty:
Is a big decision for Scotland.
America told us to get lost over 200 years ago and even blew Britain away in a war which they celebrate.
Scotland must be thinking if the U.S.A did fine after independence, why can't they.
If any Scots are thinking that, they're fucking stupid.
US independence happened almost 300 years ago when Great Britain was ruled by a monarchy, and King George III, a known tyrant, was in control during the Revolutionary War. They had very good reasons to seek independence from a government that was about 5000 miles away. Thousands died for US freedom, no one is dying for Scottish independence unless they get hit by a car or bus on their way to the polls.
Size of the country has little to do with this, especially since seeking independence won't lead you to war. You're not Crimea. Or Isreal or Palestine. And Qatar and Singapore are some of the most wealthy countries in the world, and maybe even some of the most powerful, and they're miniscule compared to a country like Israel in size and population. Qatar has a population of less than 3 million, and Singapore has less than 6 million.
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by DJ D-Luc-D:
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
They shouldn't be offering Scotland shit!
I have no say in what happens there. At this rate, independent or not they'll still end up with too much 'power'
Don't get me wrong as I'm an avid no supporter, but it's attitudes like this that brought the entire vote about in the first place.
Yeah, that was a bit more abrupt than i intended cos i was rushed!
What Rowan said is pretty much what i meant.
As the vote gets nearer, the NO side of things have just started throwing all kinds of offers to the people to try and sway them without any thought for what the rest of the UK wants.
If the YES vote wins, it should be for the right reasons - and not just a protest vote against the government.
Agreed, it is a major panic from the no side and they seem to be saying anything with little thought of consequences in the rest of the uk after the referendum. They clearly didn't think it would be this close. To be fair, neither did I.
The problem is that for a lot of yes voters it's not the right reasons. You wouldn't believe some of the 'logic' I've heard up here!
My dad's been working in Scotland and he told me that his taxi driver was voting yes. When he asked him why, he said "Well I just fancy a change really".
I shouldn't laugh as this is sadly quite typical, but that's a belter!
Another ridiculous one I heard was - 'if we make a mess of it, at least it's our mess!'
jenks
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should all have their own parliament with the same powers.
quote:Originally posted by rafferty:
Scotland must be thinking if the U.S.A did fine after independence, why can't they.
Probably because the USA has the territory and resources of a continent. Scotland by contrast has a population of about 5 million. Yes they have oil and gas, but that oil will run out in about 40 years, and is about a third of the size of the fields waiting to be tapped under the Falklands' waters.
The Dopeman
independance seems to be making a few people fall out last night my downstair neighbour was in a fight (i think he was thrown through his window idk) i heard a lot of shoughting then a smash of glass i get up to go see wtf is going on and the guy is lying in his garden with blood pouring out of his head
don't know why the **** people take something like this to such extremes
BTW he had a sticker in his window saying he was voting no and i think the majority of people in my area at least are voting yes been seeing quite a few saltires being flow outside peoples houses
i never bothered registering to vote...if it all goes pear shaped i'm moving to england
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
independance seems to be making a few people fall out last night my downstair neighbour was in a fight (i think he was thrown through his window idk) i heard a lot of shoughting then a smash of glass i get up to go see wtf is going on and the guy is lying in his garden with blood pouring out of his head
don't know why the **** people take something like this to such extremes
BTW he had a sticker in his window saying he was voting no and i think the majority of people in my area at least are voting yes been seeing quite a few saltires being flow outside peoples houses
i never bothered registering to vote...if it all goes pear shaped i'm moving to england
God that's awful! Sadly it's not the first story I've heard like that. If we get a yes then we'll be going independent in the midst of a civil war. If it's a no then there will be more carnage. People are really passionate about it and it's boiling over. The yes mob have been disgraceful to be honest.
The Dopeman
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
People are really passionate about it and it's boiling over. The yes mob have been disgraceful to be honest.
tbh i think both are as bad as each other it's like a kid throwing his toy out the pram coz he doesn't get what he wants at times both sides think they're right and the other is wrong some of the stuff i've been looking at on yt is stupid as fcuk
The Dopeman
just saw this on facebook
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
People are really passionate about it and it's boiling over. The yes mob have been disgraceful to be honest.
tbh i think both are as bad as each other it's like a kid throwing his toy out the pram coz he doesn't get what he wants at times both sides think they're right and the other is wrong some of the stuff i've been looking at on yt is stupid as fcuk
You're right. Although in my experience on social media and on the streets, the yes campaign have been far more vocal. I use another (Scottish) forum which is about 70% in favour of yes. Trying to voice my opinion is difficult as I get about 4 or 5 yes voters attacking me like a pack of wolves, because they believe so strongly in their views. It's a mess. The debate has awoken demons lying dormant in some people and it's all becoming very concerning.
The Dopeman
LOL
LOL at "alex salmond shags grannies"
too many funny videos my heads gonnae explode :p
latininxtc
A little bit of satire by an American on the subject
4/32 Area votes so far & all are wins for "No". However these are small areas of Scotland, the next couple of hours are crucial...
The drunken scotsman
Been up all night watching this unfold and im very glad to say that it's going to be a no. Result to be officially announced in about 2 hours but regional results have been pouring in and we're currently about 55% no which is expected to increase.
The Dopeman
i seen a yes vote in amongst the no votes so that tells me either the vote is either rigged or it was a simple mistake but after watching the bbc's coverage over the last few days how many more yes votes could have been "accidentally" put in beside the no vote?
people seem to be playing it safe and i'll bet money has a big part to play in it
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
i seen a yes vote in amongst the no votes so that tells me either the vote is either rigged or it was a simple mistake but after watching the bbc's coverage over the last few days how many more yes votes could have been "accidentally" put in beside the no vote?
people seem to be playing it safe and i'll bet money has a big part to play in it
Nope that was before the votes got separated. Yes Scotland actually posted on twitter to confirm this. No corruption or conspiracy theories, just democracy and the people of Scotland don't want independance. Thank fcuk!
The Dopeman
I DID!!!!!!! oh well life goes on
latininxtc
I think it's more of a too little too late situation. Y'all should have gone for independence decades ago.
djDMS
Well done Scotland for seeing sense.
Now you must be punished for your insolence! :-P
The Dopeman
the "NO" voters will realise in time what a huge mistake they made and i know for a fact they WILL regret it for the rest of their miserable lives i was against independance a while ago but after seeing a lot of underhand tactics from "Better together"campaigners and the vast majority of the media i found the decision a lot easier to make my true breaking point with the english was when i saw sky news don an auto tune bit about alex salmond to the song "i want to break free" that was just taking the piss
The Dopeman
ENGLISH FANNIES!!!! that's all i have to say
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
I DID!!!!!!! oh well life goes on
Yet you didn't register to vote...
Also you said that you thought devo max was the best option.
The Dopeman
quote:Originally posted by The drunken scotsman:
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
I DID!!!!!!! oh well life goes on
Yet you didn't register to vote...
Also you said that you thought devo max was the best option.
i did in the beginning but the last few months made me want scotland to go independent i've never voted and never will but i thought the people of scotland would have made the right decision...i was wrong
as long as i don't have to go another year having less money than people on jsa then i'll be happy but if shit gets any worse with these benefit reforms (me being disabled) then i know for a fact i'm pretty much ****ed and will probably have to turn to crime to make my life at least half decent because at this point i'm getting tired of choosing between having a decent meal or being able to have some fun with life and eating smartprice shite i can't eat decent food and enjoy life a little like most people can
i honestly don't know if things would have been the same in an independent scotland but now we'll never know
Triquatra
If someone is offering you 100groats and someone else is offering you 10groats, the person giving you 10groats throws a pint over you, and the person giving you 100groats calls you a twat and throws a pint over you
you still take the 100groats because it's the better deal despite the way they went about it! ;)
Personally I would have voted for independence
somepeoplejustwannawatchtheworldburn.
The Dopeman
i'm stickin to this statement...
THE VOTE WAS RIGGED
prove me wrong
that's all i have to say
Captain Triceps
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
that's all i have to say
djDMS
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
i'm stickin to this statement...
THE VOTE WAS RIGGED
prove me wrong
As soon as you prove it's right...
that's all i have to say
The Dopeman
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
As soon as you prove it's right...
jenks
lol
latininxtc
quote:Originally posted by Triquatra:
Personally I would have voted for independence
somepeoplejustwannawatchtheworldburn.
I actually would have loved to see Scottish vote in favor of independence, but not for the same reason as you, although that's fun too!
would have been interesting to see if Scotland could in fact rule itself without crashing and burning.
The Dopeman
quote:Originally posted by latininxtc:
I actually would have loved to see Scottish vote in favor of independence, but not for the same reason as you, although that's fun too!
would have been interesting to see if Scotland could in fact rule itself without crashing and burning.
it was never gonna happen...i mean c'mon do you really think westminster would allow scotland to go independant while we still have all the oil & gas...when it runs out i guarantee they'll give us independance
that's if WWIII doesn't destroy us 1st
Samination
any trustworthy site reporting on the so called "screwups"?
wong
Take it we're keeping the jocks then?
latininxtc
quote:Originally posted by The Dopeman:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
As soon as you prove it's right...
paper ballots? lol that's laughable in itself. Does Scotland also stain your finger to prevent voter fraud as well? lol
Why not switch to electronic voting? It's much easier and less of a headache.
The Dopeman
quote:Originally posted by wong:
Take it we're keeping the jocks then?
aye we're still here
The drunken scotsman
quote:Originally posted by wong:
Take it we're keeping the jocks then?
Nope, we voted to 'keep' the uk.
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