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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| latininxtc |
So what is everyone's thoughts on what is going on there, and what exactly is everyone hearing about it? I'm sure each of our media has a different way of interpreting the facts about what's going on there so just wondering what everyone's thoughts on the current events over there.
With the Winter Paralympics about to begin this weekend, the US and Great Britain are not going to send government representatives to the games, but the athletes are still participating. The G8 summit that is supposed to happen in Sochi in the summer looks like it won't happen at all with all the members sans Russia currently not attending. Our president is in talks with the EU to consider putting sanctions on Russia.
And slightly related, but the World Cup to be held in Quatar in 2022 is under investigation for corruption that involved their winning bid to host the event, and I believe that Russia's winning bid is being scrutinized as well. I think regardless of the report that's supposed to be released in 2015, FIFA really should consider moving the World Cup elsewhere. They could give it to Spain and Portugal, which were the runner-up winning bid to host in 2018, or the US and even the UK can host, considering that we have stadiums completely capable of holding such an event throughout each of our nations. |
| wong |
Corruption in the world cup hosting bid? Never, who would of thought |
| jenks |
The West will pussy it again, and it will be another South Ossetia. Which is silly really, because Russia ability to maintain a sustained deployment is laughable. |
| Torpex |
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| whispering |
If EU puts sanctions to Russia, it would be disastrous for my country. But they won't.
IMHO what US (Kerry) did, was burn Russia's bridges, probably on purpose. If Russia backs now, it looks like their backing away because of US. Also Kerry's "you don't just invade a country" was kinda funny.
Ukraine military is handling it really well TBH. Under great pressure, but their not responding to the penis comparison ordeal.
Kinda surprised on Poland's stance. Torpex are you really sending troops to the Ukrainian boarder? I've like seen it mentioned in many places, but not on the "big" news agencies. |
| Elipton |
Aren't most of Polands troops deployed in the UK at the moment? |
| Torpex |
Regarding Polish troop movement, it's unclear at the moment. It might be a case of people being super-sensitive to sights of AFVs, trucks, jets, taking pictures and making it seem like extraordinary stuff is happening. It might well be exercise, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an element of precalculated demonstration involved.
To be clear: our military is on more or less the same technological level as the Russians, but roughly 10 times less powerful. The lack of significant air power and air defence is the biggest issue. The Russian military in the Kaliningrad Oblast alone is probably enough to deal with our forces. But of course, if any direct confrontation were to actually happen, NATO would probably have no choice but to mount a bigger counter-move.
Aaand of course this might still be a valid strategic outcome...
...in which case most of Poland, incl. yours truly, becomes water vapour. ;)
But yeah, at the moment it doesn't seem like it'll end in anything othen than mild sanctions. Interesting to see further development in the Crimea - it really is positively surprising that no actual shooting has taken place anywhere, despite huge tensions. |
| djDMS |
Putin does keep repeating that Russia are trying to keep out of it though. And to be fair, he is a pretty upfront guy.
Maybe they'll just do what most big powers do and not interfere unless they have to! |
| Elipton |
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
Maybe they'll just do what most big powers do and not interfere unless they have to!
They have nearing 25,000 Russian troops on Ukrainian sovereign territory with de facto control in Crimea, blockading the ports, airports and the Ukrainian military base and are conducting exercises with 150,000 troops near the Ukrainian border.
Kinda past not interfering |
| Torpex |
They're not keeping out of it though, that's the whole point. They've already moved in to "protect the Russian majority in the Crimea" and are using all kinds of pressure to force the Ukrainian interim government to back off.
EDIT: Elipton beat me to it. |
| djDMS |
So why is it being reported that he keeps saying they're not in there? |
| Triquatra |
From what I understand, Crimea is a republic (think of it like northern Ireland) within Ukraine, with a pro-russian government, and a population which consists over half Russians. As the Russians entered Crimea, it was reported that the Crimean president, Aksyonov, had said that he had appealed to Russia "for assistance in guaranteeing peace and calmness" which was a result of the new government in Kiev saying that the Crimean government is illegal and switching to some constitution or other that would be anti-Crimean independence as a republic and a few other politically dodgy moves.....ie: we're coming for you next.
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-ukraine-russia-crimea-20140301,0,1978836.story#axzz2v09wbIl9
but the BBC don't want to report that Crimea asked for help before the Russians went in....guessing it doesn't make for such a good war story and makes the Russians look even worse?
the reason I say think of it like northern Ireland is that, what would the UK do if they felt the sovereignty of the republic of northern Ireland was under threat and the prime minister over there asked for help?
What did we do when the Argentine seemed to be edging towards the falkland islands?....we sent a couple of warships that way....
I'm not taking sides, but I am pretty stunned at how the western media are reporting this. They did a shocking job with Syria too.
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| Torpex |
It's the other way around though Triq, isn't it. If Crimea is like Northern Ireland, then UK = Ukraine, not Russia. Therefore, in your analogy, Ireland would be moving troops into Northern Ireland to "protect the Irish population there". Same goes for the Falklands analogy - it was officially British territory, so again, UK = Ukraine.
As much as I think argumentum ad hitlerum should be avoided, the 1938 Sudetenland annexation by Germany was officially to "protect the German population there". |
| Triquatra |
Depends at how you look at it, if it would make the analogy easier we could pretend that 55+% of people in northern Ireland consider themselves English? :P |
| Triquatra |
Haha, well, true enough!
But if we still look at the analogy and pretend for a moment that both those regions are *independent* republics, with a majority British public, and a pro-british government, and the pro-british government asked us britains for help in protecting their sovereignty beacuse they felt they were about to get it - we'd be doing the same thing as the russians right now, and would have gone through the same process the Russians did.
I'm not defending whats going on at all, but there are large gaps in whats being reported in the UK, and in the way it's being reported.. :) |
| Torpex |
I get your point, but I'd rather stick to the official "what is whose". The fact is that currently Crimea = Ukraine, and in this light the Russian stance is clearly a violation.
Whether or not Crimea *should* be Ukraine is another matter altogether, one in which I really have no opinion. There's a huge difference between Crimean (= Ukrainian, even if they consider themselves Russian) people rising up and wanting to secede and a foreign military intervention, which is what's happening at the moment. The Russian forces are not sticking to their Crimean bases, they're actively moving around the peninsula. |
| Triquatra |
That's absolutely fine, but If we're sticking to what is whose, then you should be saying that Crimea is an Independent Republic. Russia has been asked to come in to keep it that way...
(rightly or wrongly) ;) |
| Torpex |
Autonomous, not independent. Independence = you're a separate country. Crimea (by Soviet and then its own proclamation) is Ukrainian territory. But yeah, it's very complicated and I'd really have to read up about the extent of their autonomy before going into any details.
I'll just repeat that it's pretty miraculous that no shots have yet been fired. Let's hope it stays that way, regardless of the political outcome! |
| Triquatra |
ahh you know what I mean :P my only and original point here is that the neutrality of our media in the UK leaves alot to be desired!
Absolutely agree with you! :) I have my fingers crossed for a peaceful outcome! |
| Elipton |
quote:
Originally posted by Torpex:
It's the other way around though Triq, isn't it. If Crimea is like Northern Ireland, then UK = Ukraine, not Russia. Therefore, in your analogy, Ireland would be moving troops into Northern Ireland to "protect the Irish population there". Same goes for the Falklands analogy - it was officially British territory, so again, UK = Ukraine.
qft. Crimea is Ukraine, but has its own government. The people in Crimea are Ukrainian, regardless of ethnic heritage. Russia claims its acting in the interest of people who havent been Russian for over half a century.
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| Triquatra |
Yes, if you read the following posts, we went over that.
My point is Russia were asked to intervene by the government of Crimea and that the UK media have been as silent as they can be on that point, not to debate analogies lol. |
| Elipton |
quote:
Originally posted by Triquatra:
Yes, if you read the following posts, we went over that.
My point is Russia were asked to intervene by the government of Crimea, not to debate analogies lol.
Looked like you had issues grasping that fact though |
| Triquatra |
lol you sure I'm the one with the loose grasp? I thought I'd made it blindingly clear in the response where I said
"true enough!
But if we still look at the analogy and pretend..."
Really, Olly, I can't hold your hand all the time ;) |
| Triquatra |
Nice example of what I'm talking about here
Heres the clip the BBC played:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26435744
and heres the full thing
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aa2_1393943151
They cut it at exactly the point ("Furthermore, the coverage I've seen of Ukraine has been truly disappointing from all sides of the media spectrum, and ripe with disinformation,")
where she says much more poignant things about the media coverage and more importantly the effects it must be having on the people of Ukraine.
It's exactly editorial choices in the UK media, like that, that she's referring to. She hit the nail on the head with the entire thing I think. |
| whispering |
quote:
Originally posted by Triquatra:
Nice example of what I'm talking about here
Heres the clip the BBC played:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26435744
and heres the full thing
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aa2_1393943151
They cut it at exactly the point ("Furthermore, the coverage I've seen of Ukraine has been truly disappointing from all sides of the media spectrum, and ripe with disinformation,")
where she says much more poignant things about the media coverage and more importantly the effects it must be having on the people of Ukraine.
It's exactly editorial choices in the UK media, like that, that she's referring to. She hit the nail on the head with the entire thing I think.
RT is owned by Russian government. That in mind, i've always found it a very good news source. That either shows how good they are, or how bad the others are. |
| Triquatra |
Yes, yes Russia Today are owned by Russia lol
some people are speculating on that thread it's a ruse to try and make the channel seem less "biased"
pretty stupid ruse if it is XD |
| Hard2Get |
I have no idea what any of this is about and it's the first I've read of it. I also don't care. |
| latininxtc |
quote:
Originally posted by Hard2Get:
I have no idea what any of this is about and it's the first I've read of it. I also don't care.
 |
| Elipton |
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
quote:
Originally posted by Hard2Get:
I have no idea what any of this is about and it's the first I've read of it. I also don't care.
qft |
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