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T O P I C R E V I E W
arpz	Whizzkid just put a poll up on Facebook: "No explanation, JUST your answer ( a,b,c or d ) What's it called? a) It's Happy Hardcore b) Nah, it's just Hardcore c) WTF?! It's UK Hardcore d) Nope... It's Rave Music" I was going to try adding all the responses up but I've realised I can't be arsed. I'm interested in what's prompted him to ask this question, obviously Gammer has been calling all of his stuff 'happy hardcore' lately even though it's not fitting into the generally accepted definition. I'm assuming this is something to do with Gammer due to Whizzkids close affiliation with him but what's the agenda, to confirm whether or not people have accepted the 'new name' or what?
Samination	I can't say I was around when Happy Hardcore came, but from what I have seen people writting about the mid 90's, is that there were basicly 2 styles of (Happy) Hardcore. I guess something similar is happening now. And Gammer is probably trying to make his stuff THE Happy Hardcore people would associate it with.
Captain Triceps	Just hardcore, or UK hardcore if I want to be specific. Happy hardcore is a distinct sound of its own. It's like a dancehall producer calling his music "skinhead reggae", or a death metal band calling it "rock 'n' roll". For years more or less the only people calling post 2000 hardcore "happy hardcore" were either no longer into the music, or were never interested in it and were mocking us. I can sort of see why he has started doing this, not that I could explain it, and he can obviously call the music anything he likes. I just don't think it's the right term to use.
arpz	The addition of one word would fix this without ****ing up everything in the process. If you are wanting to appease international producers/fans then simply call it 'UK-style Hardcore'. It's not Dutch hardcore and it's not Happy Hardcore, it's hardcore made in the UK style post 2000.
Si Thompson	This is what I see it as.. Acid House - 1987-1990 Hardcore - 1990-1992 Jungle/Breakbeat Hardcore 1993-1995 Happy Hardcore - 1995-1999 UK Hardcore 1999/00 -
Quicksilver	Hardcore trance? I say UK hardcore.
ViolonC	In Germany it has been called Happy Hardcore ever since. Nobody knows what UK Hardcore is and simply Hardcore is 'Gabber' (or that Punk thing).
latininxtc	Happy hardcore is a term that appeals to the North American ravers. Gammer has had plenty of gigs in the US lately and I think this name change he's given to his non-happy hardcore is just to appeal more to that market. I'm with Captain Triceps that happy hardcore is a term used to specifically describe a certain type of hardcore that was popular in the 90s that isn't really all that noticeable in today's hardcore. There are some tracks though that do bring us back to that really happy sound, like with HU's Happy Hardcore Underground. Hardcore is what people who follow the scene call it, especially in the UK. While it's not an incorrect term, it's not a term without flaws either. Hardcore is a specific genre of electronic music that not only includes happy/uk hardcore, it also includes gabber hardcore, speedcore, and others. Also, on a global scale, the term hardcore is often referred to either a genre of rock/alternative music (to those not really into electronic music) or to gabber hardcore. Most people who know electronic music will think of gabber hardcore before they think of UK/happy hardcore. Personally I think UK hardcore is the best term. People will argue that it's not a good term because some people will think it only pertains to the music that's produced in the UK, but I think it also pertains to music that has been influenced by UK hardcore. So you don't have to be British to produce UK hardcore. So UK hardcore for me.
Mansy	Yeah its UK hardcore. Happy hardcore was a completely diffrent era of hardcore. hardcore works just aswell but people do see gabba as being hardcore. Rave music basicaly goes for anything. Ive heard people say im going to a rave and its some bounce shit!
arpz	It's undeniable that there's a difference between the sound of NL hardcore and UK... That's why the distinction is there, not as some kind of patriotic thing. The fact that there's now quite a few US producers making UK style hardcore doesn't mean the name is invalid or should be changed. It's about making a separation from the Dutch stuff which is totally different. This whole "let's call it happy hardcore" thing that's happening at the moment is wrong in my opinion - the names are just labels, signifiers of what to expect, it's generally understood that happy hardcore is the pre 2000 sounding stuff so I think it is ridiculous to try and reclaim that idea now that the genre names are so entrenched in the minds of anyone that isn't drinking Gammers Kool aid. ^ that was my post and it's spot on :)
Mansy	quote: Originally posted by arpz: It's undeniable that there's a difference between the sound of NL hardcore and UK... That's why the distinction is there, not as some kind of patriotic thing. The fact that there's now quite a few US producers making UK style hardcore doesn't mean the name is invalid or should be changed. It could do... US Hardcore..... lol
Samination	no, it should be called Hardcore Punk, because we are rebels!
Guest	quote: Originally posted by ViolonC: In Germany it has been called Happy Hardcore ever since. Nobody knows what UK Hardcore is and simply Hardcore is 'Gabber' (or that Punk thing). hardly a punk thing, gabber died 10 years ago, and mainstream took over, and why uk hardcore had to take the uk hardcore name in all the shops and on the internet worldwide, hardcore has been like this since theres hardcore, theres uk/happy hardcore, gabber is dead, and no big events have it cos its shit
Captain Triceps	quote: Originally posted by Guest: hardly a punk thing, gabber died 10 years ago, and mainstream took over, and why uk hardcore had to take the uk hardcore name in all the shops and on the internet worldwide, hardcore has been like this since theres hardcore, theres uk/happy hardcore, gabber is dead, and no big events have it cos its shit Finally, someone telling it straight, I'm sick of reading everyone's ambiguous replies.
Guest	people who were around in the early/mid 90s have they`re own happy hardcore, people who started going out to events and clubs from 2000+ uk/happy hardcore is the same scene
Audio Warfare	quote: Originally posted by Si Thompson: This is what I see it as.. Acid House - 1987-1990 Hardcore - 1990-1992 Jungle/Breakbeat Hardcore 1993-1995 Happy Hardcore - 1995-1999 UK Hardcore 1999/00 - Exactly this (Although there is certainly some crossover of course).
kotu	quote: Originally posted by arpz: The addition of one word would fix this without **ing up everything in the process. If you are wanting to appease international producers/fans then simply call it 'UK-style Hardcore'. It's not Dutch hardcore and it's not Happy Hardcore, it's hardcore made in the UK style post 2000. you wker
kotu	quote: Originally posted by arpz: It's undeniable that there's a difference between the sound of NL hardcore and UK... That's why the distinction is there, not as some kind of patriotic thing. The fact that there's now quite a few US producers making UK style hardcore doesn't mean the name is invalid or should be changed. It's about making a separation from the Dutch stuff which is totally different. This whole "let's call it happy hardcore" thing that's happening at the moment is wrong in my opinion - the names are just labels, signifiers of what to expect, it's generally understood that happy hardcore is the pre 2000 sounding stuff so I think it is ridiculous to try and reclaim that idea now that the genre names are so entrenched in the minds of anyone that isn't drinking Gammers Kool aid. ^ that was my post and it's spot on :) i stand corrected
arpz	Aren't they pretty much saying the same thing though? :)
kotu	'Rave music' could mean all sorts
arpz	No, I meant my two posts - the one that you took offence to and the one that made it all alright lol
The Stisk	I read the thread title and thought Whizzkid had been posting nude selfies
arpz	So you clicked to open the thread... :D
The Stisk	quote: Originally posted by arpz: So you clicked to open the thread... :D Hahaha! im an equal opportunities pervert!
kotu	quote: Originally posted by arpz: No, I meant my two posts - the one that you took offence to and the one that made it all alright lol ha ha ok well when you said uk-style hardcore i thought u was making stuff up being a freak then i realised that ppl in us etc making it would have to call it something like that lol
arpz	got ya :)
Ken Masters	My opinion is: - It needs to move away from the term UK Hardcore now. The music has become way too diverse & the following far too wide spread to lazily tag it that. - Is Happy Hardcore what we should use again? In some ways I like it because there's a buzz surrounding the scene again reminiscent of the glory days. But! It seems like a step back. - If we're going to reintroduce past terms then why use Happy Hardcore as this was just a subgenre in itself & we're limiting progression & risking people turning their noses up at hearing the name alone (thats a debate in itself!) My solution: Call it 'Hardcore Techno'. Thats exactly what we listen too, a harder or "hardcore" version of Techno. Thats what it always has been & thats what it always will be. Better yet, it still sounds respectable, far from dated sounding like the term HH, and! It'll entice many, many dance music fans the world over to listen without prejudging :)
Captain Triceps	The term Happy hardcore should be reserved for that style, whether older stuff or the similar stuff produced now. It's like some commercial drum and bass artist adding a trance flavour to his music with a northern soul twist and elements of lounge music, and referring to this style as "jungle". Hardcore techno is a much more appropriate term. (Although personally hardcore techno was what I always called the music played by the likes of Scorpio and Producer). But then, why add the techno part? Just hardcore should be enough! I wish there was more 'actual' happy hardcore being made.
kotu	I think it doesn't really matter what we call it. It doesn't matter if we call it happy hardcore amd it doesn't matter if we want to call it UK hardcore but.. I have a prediction that in THIRTY YEARS it will have evolved slightly (I don't know how) and most people in the world (YES) will be into it by then and then we might call it 'nu-wave' But it will still be hardcore
arpz	Claxton posted this wicked track to me in the thread on facebook - :D Can't wait to get my mitts on that Who chooses a name? I would've said that the genre name is defined as what the majority of people call a particular style of music. Before Gammer et al made the announcement that from now on all the music they put out would be called 'happy hardcore' you wouldn't have found a single person in the UK calling it that. The only real solution I'd be happy with is the umbrella term 'hardcore' but we obviously decided at some point that it wasn't acceptable with the Dutch overlap. It works with drum and bass, though. People will say they produce 'drum and bass' regardless of if it's neuro/liquid/jump-up. You wouldn't hear Noisia saying 'we produce Jungle' - That's analogous to what Gammer etc. are doing
kotu	I don't really see the problem of calling it Happy Hardcore at all, because, at the end of the day, it IS hardcore, and it very much IS, happy music.
Vladel	I don't think pig face counts as happy
jordesuvi	For a while, I thought the termed coined by Rhythmics "Hardcore Rave" was an appropriate name for the updated modern sound, but it never quite caught on as much as I hoped. With a collection of influential producers, promoters and labels (Gammer, Nanobii, Darren, TWR, Porter Robinson, Audien, Vau Boy, S3RL, Monstercat, XKito etc) calling the genre Happy Hardcore, I figure since that's essentially what the genre is, I'm content in calling it that. On the whole, I think it makes a perfect umbrella term so that the non-elitists of the genre can simply identify what they're listening to easier. I mean, if we were to get unnecessarily technical about it, I'd have it: 1990 - 1999 = Happy Hardcore/Breakbeat Hardcore (depending on the song) 2000 - 2011 = UK Hardcore 2012 - ____ = Hardcore Rave But then it has me wonder, why has the genre's name got to change every time the sound updates. Trance, Electro House, Dubstep, Deep House and other genres have had a few new coats of paint in their time and have never felt the need to rename themselves.
arpz	It probably should've stayed as 'happy hardcore/hardcore' but it didn't and because of that not reasonable to return to something that describes the old style in the minds of everyone
kotu	How about to resolve this we call hardcore this from now on......... ON-AND-OFF SOMETIMES-IN-SHEDS AND IN-UFOS BRAS-OFF NO-SPEAKERS
Samination	Blandcore?
ViolonC	UK Hardcore doesn't work anymore. (If you can't see why you are probably from the UK ) Just Hardcore has the overlap with it's dutch brother. Happy Hardcore is essentially what the music is. It's the name of it's roots and in comparison to the dutch style it's pretty obviously happy.
kotu	So that's 2 in agreement anyone else?
Samination	copying this from Si Thompson: quote: This is what I see it as.. Acid House - 1987-1990 Hardcore - 1990-1992 Jungle/Breakbeat Hardcore 1993-1995 Happy Hardcore - 1995-1999 UK Hardcore 1999/00 - My timeline of things: Jungle/Breakbeat Hardcore 1993-1995 Happy Hardcore 1995-2000 ("Scott Brown Happy Hardcore" 1995-2001) Upfront Hardcore 2001-2006 UK Hardcore 2005- I'm still reluctant to call it Happy Hardcore, but it's true that the sound has changed alot since the beginning of 2000, but back in 2002-2006 they called it Upfront by a few :P To me, as long as it resembles the stuff from after "crash of the millenium", it's UK Hardcore. Kinda like Rock music from the 80's is still categorised with Rock from the 2000's.
kotu	I don't see what anyone's problem with it being UK hardcore is. If I was making dutch gabba I would say I was making dutch gabba. Simple as that lol Confused really
CDJay	I try to rarely go on record, but this is probably a moment where it's worth it. "Happy Hardcore" is a good title; for the moment at least. It's what the Europeans will call it, it's what the North Americans want to refer to it as, it's what Japan knows it as along with.... well as the entire of Australasia. The irony, here, is that it was originally abandoned as an attempt to make the genre look "grown up"; as if it has out grown it's silly origins and was now a credible thing borne from borderline comedic origin. This would last a whole lot longer, in my mind, if what followed was half as self-identifiable and assured as what actually followed. Yes, I know a lot of people (looking at you, Elliot ) seem to think that the mid to late noughties was a golden era. I, personally, think things went skewwhiff around the mid noughties when the idea of chasing commercial success and diluting the genre for a pay check/acclaim/mass market acceptance was in some way laudable or longevity laced. It wasn't; the simplification of musical content in a "loudness war" against ourselves; the cheap lazy remixes of anything licensable with a name attached.... Christ we should look longingly at the days of borderline ironic covers without autotune. We lost what we were, are, and could be. Fast forward, past the wondrous handling of "dub core" and we land in an era where suddenly the tag has worth and relevance. I know, from various chats and confabs with long standing influential industries luminaries, that a lot of people who grew up with and entered the industry alongside our all-you-can-eat bake sale actually view the 90s with far less of a snidey attitude than many in our ranks. Some who previously scorned the roots of genre now want to ride on the recently resurrected coattails of near extinct beasts as they have horns the poachers apparently want or at least might. Ultimately; who actually gives a crap what it's called? As long as it's something genuinely distinct, an actual scene with a sense of self worth, it wouldn't matter. The mere fact there is any debate shows where we're actually at. Chasing guest appearances at a party we're desperate to get an invite to, rather than thinking we can orchestrate a better one. I'll call it "happy hardcore", as it suits my purpose and I have a plan. Difference is I take that title, the legacy and borderline punk ethos it implies, seriously. Any takers? CDJay
arpz	This is literally hardcores brexit. Your metaphor game is strong CDJay... Let's go back two years and assume that we'd already all decided that we're 'in' and that all future UK Hardcore is 'happy hardcore'. HU are about to release the long awaited compilation, smiley face artwork has been commissioned, the updated tracks are ready, what is it called? Thinking about this, I've realised, I never even use the term 'happy hardcore' to describe any of it, ever. I usually just say 95 hardcore or whatever. Maybe I'll just go back to sitting on the fence and moaning less.
CDJay	It's hard to tell what we'd have called that project, if the genre around it was still titled "happy hardcore" but I'm guessing something like "classics" "retro" would have wormed in there.... Obviously we titled the album series/label/company "Hardcore" Underground, and I personally probably wouldn't have gone with the "Happy" prefix then or indeed until recently but.... things change. Right now it's fairly apparent that the UK side of things is.... difficult. There are rifts, politics, entrenched opinions aplenty. There's far too much reverence for the recent past, and we're absolutely letting that negatively influence any potential future. Things in our little corner of industry may have been driven primarily by UK artists/djs/labels/albums until now, but it's the global market that is where the future lies IMO. Rather than tagging it all "UK" as a differentiator, we're better off claiming a tag that makes sense in that market. It really doesn't have the negative connotations even I had always assumed..... CDJay
kotu	Well said CDjay. Now admit that my idea is better
CDJay	Personally I'd far rather go with your idea, but external factors force my hand. Hell, before "Trancecore", Freeform was briefly called "Kenneth" CDJay
Samination	ROFL, KEnneth after who or waht? :P
Captain Triceps	quote: Originally posted by Samination: ROFL, KEnneth after who or waht? :P I think Sharkey came up with it, ironic reference to silly subgenre names and the like. Anyway, call the modern stuff what you want. I'll call it happy hardcore when it sounds like happy hardcore.
kotu	But Freeform is clearly a better name than Kenneth
arpz	Freeform Barlow
djDMS	quote: Originally posted by Captain Triceps: Anyway, call the modern stuff what you want. I'll call it happy hardcore when it sounds like happy hardcore. My thoughts exactly. I've described the music as 'Hardcore rave' or 'Hardcore dance' for a long long time - ironically when explaining it to people who ignorantly say 'oh, you listen to Happy Hardcore'?
Captain Triceps	quote: Originally posted by djDMS: people who ignorantly say 'oh, you listen to Happy Hardcore'? This is the sort of thing that pisses me right off. I played Serious Evil Shit Mission 3 once at work, and got told to "get this happy hardcore shit turned off". I played Awesome 3 - Don't Go. The supervisor (she listened to nothing but commercial dubstep and D&B, by the way) said: "I like the piano part but the rest just sounds like happy hardcore". I felt like pounding my head against a wall. Another guy, thought he was a bigshot DJ because he played in town centre nightclubs and saw himself as the music oracle. Blandest taste in music you could imagine. If it wasn't in the charts or at least popular enough to play up town, then it was automatically "shite", before he'd even listened to it. Constantly belittled my taste in music (I listen to many, many genres). I asked him to name one Darren Styles track, since he knows so much. "Ultrabeat" was his answer. Genuinely thought I listened to Basshunter and Flip and Fill because "they are happy hardcore". I occasionally got a few actual happy hardcore tracks over the system. And what did the manager say? "I didn't know people still listened to acid house"! All of this in the last 5 years or so, so it wasn't like it was early UK hardcore or anything.
arpz	one of my colleagues called it 'Happy Go Hardcore' once and I went a bit mental, now he's realised it pisses me off so he does it every time it gets mentioned.
latininxtc	quote: Originally posted by arpz: one of my colleagues called it 'Happy Go Hardcore' once and I went a bit mental, now he's realised it pisses me off so he does it every time it gets mentioned. Sounds like something I would do!
Captain Triceps	I have mates who are into music such as hip hop, heavy metal, progressive trance, etc. If I was to call them something different, like R&B for hip hop, hard house for trance, and so on, they'd bite my head off. "But oh, it's only happy hardcore, the joke of the music world, even though I can't name a single record or producer apart from Hixxy - Shooting Star. Why do you call this freeform? Or gabber? It's happy hardcore, can't you tell?" I sound angry, but I'm really not...
ViolonC	quote: Originally posted by djDMS: I've described the music as 'Hardcore rave' or 'Hardcore dance' for a long long time - ironically when explaining it to people who ignorantly say 'oh, you listen to Happy Hardcore'? Most people don't care about you deep techstep genre. They have broad categories for music they don't specialize in and that's it. If you think Richard Wagner did classical music you'd be as dead wrong as what you complained about. Being ignorant can go both ways.
Samination	I'd gladly call it happy hardcore as long as people would understand what it could be. In Sweden, and at work to boot, if I ever mention mys music, they just think it's 99% drugs and 1% alcohol :P
ViolonC	You could be into Metal. Then its 99% alcohol an 1% drugs.
trippnface	quote: Originally posted by Samination: I'd gladly call it happy hardcore as long as people would understand what it could be. In Sweden, and at work to boot, if I ever mention mys music, they just think it's 99% drugs and 1% alcohol :P lol!
Elliott	The funny thing is that Gammer's "happy" hardcore is just about the least happy that hardcore has been since 1995. quote: Originally posted by Si Thompson: This is what I see it as.. Acid House - 1987-1990 Hardcore - 1990-1992 Jungle/Breakbeat Hardcore 1993-1995 Happy Hardcore - 1995-1999 UK Hardcore 1999/00 - Agree but for me 2012 onwards is a different era. I don't want the responsibility of thinking of a title because I'd just call it "shit 170bpm EDM masquerading as UK hardcore" and that's not very catchy. quote: Originally posted by ViolonC: quote: Originally posted by djDMS: I've described the music as 'Hardcore rave' or 'Hardcore dance' for a long long time - ironically when explaining it to people who ignorantly say 'oh, you listen to Happy Hardcore'? Most people don't care about you deep techstep genre. They have broad categories for music they don't specialize in and that's it. If you think Richard Wagner did classical music you'd be as dead wrong as what you complained about. Being ignorant can go both ways. This. The number of people who still call ALL electronic music "techno" is hard to believe/deal with though.
Anarchy Breed	I've never really been a fan of the name "UK Hardcore", it's not just a UK thing is it? Even back when the name was first really adopted ('00+) there have been artists from all over making it...
ViolonC	The Name likely had been adopted in the wake of UK Garage or French House and alike. With the majority of artist in the UK is seemed fitting i guess. But unsurprisingly foreign artist (and crowds) didn't pick up on it that much except to market it in the UK.
kotu	Bla* call their music b b*****
Samination	quote: Originally posted by Anarchy Breed: I've never really been a fan of the name "UK Hardcore", it's not just a UK thing is it? Even back when the name was first really adopted ('00+) there have been artists from all over making it... Well if 9 out 10 are UK residents, then I would still call it UK Hardcore. I'm sure Britpop exists outside the UK, but it's still called Britpop :P
Guest	uk hardcore is used because slipmat, vibes, sy etc don't like the name happy hardcore, while to the rest of the world its called happy hardcore because hardcore is hardcore seeing most of them have retired for the 20th time and only do fusion events, they can all **** off, and everyone in the uk can use happy hardcore on flyers find some interviews with them all and they will say its uk hardcore because happy hardcore is cheesie and belong in the 90s
Guest	hardcore is hardcore, none of that pitched up crap nobody cares about
Guest	yeah,you can destroy westfest with a house of these on the main stage shit nobody ever heard before, unless your in bristol taking the piss out of drum & bass
Royzourboy	Been lurking in this thread for a while... figured I'd say something before it got too old. But for real, whatever happened to calling it upfront hardcore? Afaik it was essentially the old name for uk hardcore. It wasn't exactly happy and it definitely wasn't gabber but it wasn't exactly trancecore either. It was just a comfortable inbetween like uk hardcore.
ViolonC	Afaik upfront hardcore was just a name for the most recent uk hardcore stuff (promotion wise).
Captain Triceps	quote: Originally posted by ViolonC: Afaik upfront hardcore was just a name for the most recent uk hardcore stuff (promotion wise). Definitely this, you even heard this term used in the happy hardcore days, referring to the latest tunes. It applies to other styles of music too.

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