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whispering
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 Posted - 2011/04/16 : 10:11:34
...are tomorrow and many Europeans are afraid the True Finn's will become the biggest party :P
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13091920
Never have i found some much BS in one article, i just lost all trust on BBC.
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Triquatra
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 11:05:33
glad you've finally come round to seeing the bbc my way :P
*edit* decided to write a little more about my feelings on them:
whilst they may not have a *true* political bias, they have what i consider a populist-left bias, in my own loose terms, they will put whatever spin they think that the vast majority will agree with, that which places them on some sort of moral high-ground, in short i feel they are center-left media.
i used to have it in for the BBC, and still do - their news articles whilst not always having an obvious bias, often will spin things in the way the write the articles. they take great pleasure at whatever moment they can to compare england to america - at christmas, we get christmas articles about 'Are we turning our chrsitmas into a very american one" the same at halloween - when subjects of language come up comparatives will always be drawn with them - insighting anti-american comments in the comments below (the latest and amusing one being the "aitch" vs "haitch" article, where there were an absolute ton of comments refering to the americanisation of the english language "haitch is all america's fault" which is absoulte nonsense as they say "aitch" - even on seseme street they say "aitch"
anyway that aside - we have local elections coming up, and more recently the AV vote just round the corner, which oddly enough the BBC seem to be leaving off their front page (even though its less than a month away)
Andrew Marr (of all people) that is quoted saying the BBC is "a publicly-funded urban organisation with an abnormally large proportion of younger people, of people in ethnic minorities and almost certainly of gay people, compared with the population at large all of which creates an innate liberal bias inside the BBC"
I think it sums it up rather well to be honest - doesn't help that the majority of its business is done in london as well - the smuggest city on the planet (no offense to londers, but there are an awful lot of 'greater than though' smuggers sitting outside coffee bars in the street sipping their expresso's holding newspapers with their Louis Vuitton handbags laughing at the latest celeb gossip...I expect they are all so smug and happy because they work for the BBC... :P
the above just reflecting on what Mr Marr said and also going back to what i said about 'populist' whats cool or trendy to say, rather than writing the news as-is.
in comparison channel 4 and 5 are much much worse, they too have the same "bias" expect they dont really have reputations to uphold - so they dont need to be as worried about upholding one.
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2011/04/16 11:30:12 |
whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 11:59:36
quote:
Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
in short i feel they are center-left media.
Its only ironic that the news is about a center-left political party :D
Reuters had a much better article on the political situation here.
As far as your BBC rant goes, you could just switch BBC to YLE and London to Helsinki and it would be equally true :P
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Edited by - whispering on 2011/04/16 12:00:19 |
Lilley
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 13:15:36
quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
quote:
Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
in short i feel they are center-left media.
Its only ironic that the news is about a center-left political party :D
really? the article made them sound quite far right in some regards. I guess parties can have elements of both.
Even the reuters article made them sound fairly right wing. Their general policies may be leftist, but the whole national identity thing is quite conservative. It may just be conservative socialist.
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Edited by - Lilley on 2011/04/16 13:28:42 |
Triquatra
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 13:40:38
well, in short my quote doesnt really work, i hesitated putting that in-short, i think it really needs to be quoted with the rest of what i said, rather what i said (center-left) was for want of a better word (which i think i almost hit upon with the made up "populist-left")
whispering would be better to comment on that particular article as i'm sure he has a fairly good idea what the widespread views on immigration are so i wouldnt like to comment on that as i'm not in the area, and as ironic as it is - i would be relying on the BBC to relay that information to me LOL (which is the big issue).
Jeff Randall the BBCs previous business editor recently said on working at the BBC:
Its a bit like walking into a Sunday meeting of the Flat Earth Society. As they discuss great issues of the day, they discuss them from the point of view that the earth is flat.
If someone says, No, no, no, the earth is round!, they think this person is an extremist. Thats what its like for someone with my right-of-centre views working inside the BBC.
i only flicked over the artcle, but it looks as though, as often with on the BBC, its worded/stacked against an "anti" immigration party - my guess from the article is that they arent "anti" immigration, just "anti" bad immigration.
my second guess is that there is no surge at all, and its just over-hype
whispering?
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2011/04/16 13:47:40 |
whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 14:33:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
really? the article made them sound quite far right in some regards. I guess parties can have elements of both.
Even the reuters article made them sound fairly right wing. Their general policies may be leftist, but the whole national identity thing is quite conservative. It may just be conservative socialist.
Ill try to reply to that and Triquatras post on my biased (i support the party) little rant
Far right have been misused for so long IMO. But in short: They are not a far right political party. Some of their politics might sound similar to the ones of far right, though. The brand themselves as neither on the right nor on the left. They say they're the workers party (pointing at Social Democratic party) without the socialism. And openly say they're a populist party.
Generally they are for the "little people", lower middle class and middle class. They're supporters are told to be unemplyed racist men. There was a survey on this, in its quite the opposite. They're very popular among e.g. upper middle class. They are strongly for public health care, elderly care, small businesses, nationalism etc.
Nationalism, this means (usually) here: No to NATO, yes to conscription (because of the wars that happened in the past century), yes for gun rights (the laws are strict, but they are against banning of hand guns), welfare, finnish tax money should be used first and foremost for the finnish people.
Immigration, this is not their main policies. But they are generally against our current immigration policies (candidates that have similar views can be found in almost all political parties, but not in such great numbers). They are often against the mass movement form the third world to live on our welfare system, do crime etc. If someone would even suggest that we should make similar facilities for asylum seekers as Australia has, nazi cards would start flying from every direction. So i'll give few examples of our current laws:
-Requirement to speak/read Finnish or Swedish if you want Finnish citizenship has been removed.
-Even serious crimes are not an obstacle to gain finnish citizenship
-Immigrants that are "united" (a person in finland that wants to bring their family members to Finland), the plane tickets are paid by the government (only country that does that in the world AFAIK). Being a family member doesnt mean by blood. You can guess how well this can be misused.
-Immigrants get more money from welfare then finnish people (their paid here the highest in europe, and probably the world)
-Immigrants from Islamic countries are 10 times more likely to do sex crimes or violent crimes. And are not deported after doing so.
The list goes on and on. But in short, people dont want North Korea they want some sense in the laws. Usually people bring up Danish immigration laws (strict) and Switzerlands direct democracy as what they would want here too.
EU, they have been against EU from the start. Which was one of the reasons i was against the party for a long time. But currently e.g. Greece lies and corruption has brought the country to some serious financial trouble. What our government does? Backs up loans to them that they can never pay. So in short we cut our own services, get more loan to back up crooks like that? Even EU:s own laws are against it. Of course after that we have to back up Ireland and now Portugal. Next to go will probably be Spain or Italy. Another issue on EU, is EU payments. We pay like 200 million every year to Britain because they're such a poor little country. I mean WTF?
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Edited by - whispering on 2011/04/16 14:39:40 |
whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 14:49:29
quote:
Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
whispering would be better to comment on that particular article as i'm sure he has a fairly good idea what the widespread views on immigration are so i wouldnt like to comment on that as i'm not in the area, and as ironic as it is - i would be relying on the BBC to relay that information to me LOL (which is the big issue).
Other points on the BBC article:
"Finland is officially bilingual, but the True Finns' nationalism has no room for Swedish. It excludes Swedish as something unfamiliar to Finnish culture."
In Finland everyone has to study Swedish. All government works most speak Swedish. I come from Finland Proper and there are many Swedish speaking Finns here. However the situation is different in e.g. the Russian boarder and north Finland. They want people to be able to decide if they want to study Swedish. Nobody has said Swedish language doesn't have a place in Finland. Swedish speaking finns make up about 5% of the population. To give some perspective it would be like forcing the whole of Britain to study the Welsh language.
"They believe that a low birth rate is not solved by immigration, as that results in problems and foreigners are do not fit into Finnish culture."
Simply not true.
"Instead, young women should study less and spend more time giving birth to pure Finnish children. That is like a faint echo of Nazi ideology."
AFAIK The party leader (and other politicians for that matter) have suggested that Students getting kids should be supported more by the government. Because many study a long time, and only after that feel are financially able to start a family. So they want to financially support them. The "pure Finnish children" is another brain fart from BBC.
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Edited by - whispering on 2011/04/16 14:57:37 |
whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 15:15:29
More on Nationalism (the elections are tomorrow, and i'm kinda eiger to talk about politics... that nobody else cares about). The party is very much for a "National identity". Its a very popular ideal in todays Europe where EU is gaining more and more power. People that feel proud to be Finnish are labeled as racists often. I personally believe that healthy nationalism (one that isnt gained with the expense of others) is very good. Generally Nordic countries have been very "nationalistic". The will to protect ones country has been over 80%. When in other parts of Europe its often less then 40%. IMHO if you want to build a great country, you must love your country. And in todays world, its a curse word to some. Saddens me. What do you all think? Is nationalism always evil?
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Lilley
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 16:07:00
quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
Other points on the BBC article:
I said the BBC made them out to be far right, I didn't say I swallowed every word. I will stand by my statement that they do sound right wing, more right wing than the EU at any rate, which isn't really a bad thing. EU and france are getting a bit carried away I think.
Sensationalist media is sensationalist media, political stance doesn't really enter the equation. The sensationalist media in Aus is incredibly right wing, it's quite annoying. There's really only one or two balanced news media and even one of them is heading down the sensational path (though generally staying balanced).
It will be interesting to see another european country turning away from socialism, after the icelandic collapse and reforming.
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whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 16:16:18
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
It will be interesting to see another european country turning away from socialism, after the icelandic collapse and reforming.
Socialism as i think you mean (welfare state), if they get elected we would go back to it. We've had a right wing government for the past 4 years. So we would go back to left, not more right. EU is all for capitalism (right wing), when shit hits the fan their all for socialism (left wing). Much like most of the western world ATM.
What do you mean by "far right"? As I'm a bit baffled how a center-left party can also be far right at the same time?
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Edited by - whispering on 2011/04/16 16:18:26 |
Triquatra
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Posted - 2011/04/16 : 23:36:04
yep, that sounds like a typical BBC stance, if they dont quite agree with it, they will do their best to write things with such a subtle (or in somecases not so subtle) spin to them without being outrightly biased.
not to worry though, i suspect their days are numbered now (what with the digital age being well upon us).
*edit* looks like they recently put an AV article on the front page ...perhaps i'm being watched? hehe
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2011/04/17 00:10:33 |
Lilley
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Posted - 2011/04/17 : 03:16:47
ok, spain italy france portugal, possibly germany (not sure), ireland, greece, iceland, pretty certain Czech, and I'm fairly sure a few others follow reasonably socialist economic policies particularly in areas of state run industries, so-called progressive thinking and welfare systems. In france I think it's something like 25% of people are employed in the public sector. That is huge. In Australia it would be closer to 5%, though that figure is a guess, it may be a bit larger.
Generally speaking, ideas of country identity with immigration control, industry privatisation, support for the corporate world are all tied in with right wing and conservative policies, certainly not a progressive thinking "for the people" approach.
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whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/17 : 09:19:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
ok, spain italy france portugal, possibly germany (not sure), ireland, greece, iceland, pretty certain Czech, and I'm fairly sure a few others follow reasonably socialist economic policies particularly in areas of state run industries, so-called progressive thinking and welfare systems. In france I think it's something like 25% of people are employed in the public sector. That is huge. In Australia it would be closer to 5%, though that figure is a guess, it may be a bit larger.
Tried finding a chart on this, found that one: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PMR
Is that what you mean?
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
Generally speaking, ideas of country identity with immigration control, industry privatisation, support for the corporate world are all tied in with right wing and conservative policies, certainly not a progressive thinking "for the people" approach.
As far as i know, privatization here is mostly done by all parties. However there are few exceptions; health care and education are probably the touchiest subjects. Privatization attempts of those before elections, or cutting from those is more or less a political suicide. However the policy to slowly privatize those is supported by the right wing. But e.g. the Social Democrats, True Finns and the left Alliance are very much against it. Personally i think conservatism and left-right wing are two completely different things: theres a chart on both: http://www.loitto.com/tilastot/hsvaalikone11/kartta/
The chart is done from the answers from currently running candidates.
Up is liberal, down is conservative. Right is right wing and left is left wing.
The parties on the list are (blue = current government, yellow in parliament (opposition)):
KOK (National Coalition Party, right wing)
KESK (Centre Party, center)
SDP (Social Democratic Party, left or center-left)
PS (True Finns, center left IMO)
VIHR (Green League, center IMO)
VAS (Left Alliance, left wing)
RKP (Swedish People's Party, right wing)
KD (Christian Democrats, center)
PIR (Pirate Party)
IPU (Independence Party)
KTP (Communist Workers' Party For Peace and Socialism)
KA (For the Poor)
M2011 (Change 2011)
SKP (Communist Party)
SEN (Senior Citizens')
STP (Workers Party of Finland)
VP (Freedom Party)
kaikki (show all)
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Edited by - whispering on 2011/04/17 09:20:22 |
Lilley
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Posted - 2011/04/17 : 12:54:04
quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
Tried finding a chart on this, found that one: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PMR
Is that what you mean?
I have to say I don't know what that shows.
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whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/17 : 16:43:55
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
Tried finding a chart on this, found that one: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PMR
Is that what you mean?
I have to say I don't know what that shows.
Probably not that then. Hard to find links in English, since i barely understand the subject in Finnish ;)
Anyway, sunny day. Changed summer tires to my bicycle. Got some beer from the local store. Hooked up my PC to the projector. So after the voting ends at about 8PM. Its time to start watching 5 hours of excessive brown nosing, repetitive political phrases, some drama and vote counting. should be fun ...or at least interesting.
I predict the current 2 biggest parties are going to just switch places. If that happens, it'll be interesting to see who forms the government. Together they don't get the majority yet. Greens have said they wouldn't sit in a government that gives more nuclear power permissions (they've only been there twice, so they kinda fear 3 time would be too much ;)) True Finns have said no to more EU bailouts. So id suppose that leaves it to Social Democrats. Which would be rather ...boring (see the Reuters link on how the biggest 3 look all the same).
If True Finns win, and are able to form a majority government. Id suspect a Christian Democrats, Social Democrats and Left Alliance government. Though id could be the complete opposite, and form it with the National Coalition and Centre party. But the left wing agrees more with them on the EU bailouts, which has been a big issue with them. If Social Democrats win, id suspect a similar ending as with True Finns.
EDIT: Another good article on the subject: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/8456051/Timo-Soini-The-Finnish-bear-mauling-the-EUs-bailout-plans.html
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Edited by - whispering on 2011/04/17 17:04:43 |
whispering
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Posted - 2011/04/17 : 19:12:39
47,5% of votes counted, shit is getting exiting :O
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