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Elipton
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,268 posts
Joined: Apr, 2013
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 Posted - 2014/10/05 : 14:51:21
I'm a little puzzled by this. When producing a Hardcore track, including a very simple intro section and outro section is gospel. Why?
Draw Hardcore next to Drum & Bass, a similar tempo band genre, and you have a genre that very rarely has mixable intro's. It depends on DJ skill to make it work in a mix. It makes Drum & Bass sound far more musical. Liquid D&B from producers like Keeno, Metrik, Etherwood is very popular, but it's not produced solely for DJ's. Listeners won't be bored for 2 minutes a track hearing the music.
When artists release mixable tracks on Hardcore artist albums, whom are they releasing the music for? DJ's for casual listeners? I know I'm guilty of this, but I've tried to move my physical-bound music away from this irritating trend.
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,239 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 15:16:57
could be since DnB is more popular, they had to kill the intro/outro's so people would enjoy the tracks? But then, it doesnt explain why Trance still has long intro's
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DJ_FunDaBounce
Advanced Member
Colombia
2,091 posts
Joined: Nov, 2001
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 15:28:48
quote:
Originally posted by Elipton:
I'm a little puzzled by this. When producing a Hardcore track, including a very simple intro section and outro section is gospel. Why?
Back in the vinyl days it became the norm so that it would be "DJ friendly". You have to take into account the fact that back then a good track selection, propper beatmatching with maybe some scratching skills, turned you into a propper dj. Whereas the modern dj has exclusive tracks, sync button advantages, and see more value in remixing live. The concept of lining up track after track had it's place at some point and I believe that's what made the intro/outro concept stick.
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http://www.brightspeedrecordings.com/
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Claxton
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,061 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 15:31:18
I think you've answered your own question in a way.
Laziness/has become the norm is probably the answer. Playing out is such a big part of hardcore and DJ friendly versions of tracks make it so much easier to do so.
With regards to artist albums, I find that there is usually a compromise. Take Fracus & Darwin albums for example, some tracks don't have DJ friendly intros and those which do are usually short. I guess this is to appeal both to DJs and casual listeners alike.
I thought the balance was good on The Holy Gates,
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Elipton
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,268 posts
Joined: Apr, 2013
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 16:17:57
I think one of the massive reasons D&B has become so big is that with every track you get 5 minutes of musical progressing music.
With Hardcore you get 2 minutes of the average 5 taken up by nothing special, and then the remaining three are very predictable. There's nothing too special to it, which is a shame.
A decent example of a piece of recent Drum & Bass that is entirely musical and is written as such is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzXgEcB_MX8
When was the last time a Hardcore track started and finished in such a way? But at the same time, we can all agree that if a Hardcore track was written like this, it'd be a fantastic track. In it's stead we have 2 minutes of intro section before any musical strings or piano can be heard at the breakdown.
I preach all of this, but I'm not as much of a musician as others in the scene are. Those talented enough at writing music are the ones who are key to maybe starting a trend where you get a piece of music for the whole track.
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DJ_FunDaBounce
Advanced Member
Colombia
2,091 posts
Joined: Nov, 2001
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 16:32:18
Nanobii's stuff is really good, and to the point. Among the best arrangments for the type of hardcore described by Elipton.
for those who haven't heard:
https://soundcloud.com/nanobii
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"Fun with a capital F-D-B!"
http://www.brightspeedrecordings.com/
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Claxton
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,061 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 19:58:58
I think Re-Con is probably one of the best producers for progressing tracks as they go, although the still fit the traditional mould which you allude to.
He will build melodies up and finally release them later in the track or won't introduce a vocal until the second breakdown or what ever. But still he uses the standard intros + outros.
A growing trend recently has been to have just 16 bar kick intros before breaking down. I personally prefer longer intros with kick and bass. Some freeform intros are brilliant when they keep doing and going before breaking down for the first time.
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ViolonC
Average Member
Germany
243 posts
Joined: Sep, 2014
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 21:24:21
The mix in and mix out has a simple and obvious function: to make it easy for a DJ to transition between two tracks. No one is forcing a DJ to transition later or mix out earlier, but most of the time he will need to make a more abrupt transition than a gradual, slowly developing one.
Some people will argue that the best transition is the one that is not noticeable until it has already happened. While this is not the only truth i think it is obvious that having a mix in/out makes this much easier with a greater variety of different tracks than without one. So it becomes a matter of what records you can play after it where the transition will sound good.
Trance essentially works with a big arc of suspense so you wanna make sure there are no rapid breaks or interruptions. Without a mix in/out you gonna be lost there.
For the radio and the casual listeners the mix in/out is boring so its left out - there is a Radio Edit of the Original Mix or a DJ Edit of the Original Track. You may compare what version you can buy on itunes/amazon or beatport.
D&B does use mix in/out, too, but differently, more subtle and most of the time it is easier to mix out of a drum&bass track at any point in the track than it is with a hardcore track. So you do not need to rely that much on them.
How long the mix in/out is and whether there is a "DJ section" in the track depends on the time and the mindset with that the track was produced. Today electronic dance tracks are completely loaded with effects and buildups but before there were powerful DAWs you simply didn't have the capacity to have endless tracks in your project with tons of effects. The DJ on the other hand had a effect battery on his mixer so you would give him some space to work that, maybe throw in a scratching passage without killing the vocals or melody.
With Sync and tons of already build in effects thats not necessary anymore.
That drum&bass may be more popular has nothing to do with missing mix ins/outs. The track is delivered in the best way the intended recipient wants to consume it.
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Edited by - ViolonC on 2014/10/05 21:28:06 |
Cyrax
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
623 posts
Joined: May, 2012
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 21:27:33
I prefer tracks with standard intros outros, not just because they are easier to mix but because I like to hear the elements of the track added slowly, but definitely a firm believer of trying new innovative stuff, the problem with making Freeform and Hardcore is that the template and parameters have to be a certain way so your still making Freeform/Hardcore, a lot of stuff that you can attempt sometimes especially I've found with riffs is that the sound the same as everyone elses and have been done before
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The drunken scotsman
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,488 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 22:09:24
quote:
Originally posted by Claxton:
I think Re-Con is probably one of the best producers for progressing tracks as they go, although the still fit the traditional mould which you allude to.
He will build melodies up and finally release them later in the track or won't introduce a vocal until the second breakdown or what ever. But still he uses the standard intros + outros.
A growing trend recently has been to have just 16 bar kick intros before breaking down. I personally prefer longer intros with kick and bass. Some freeform intros are brilliant when they keep doing and going before breaking down for the first time.
Yeah gets on my nerves that most new tracks have such a short intro. Much prefer the longer intros.
My favourite kind is when they give you a flavour of the main riff before the breakdown. Come running is the most obvious example I can think of, although there are many. Love mixing these tracks into tunes which don't have a melody as such.
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Triquatra
Moderator
United Kingdom
12,637 posts
Joined: Nov, 2003
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Posted - 2014/10/05 : 22:16:37
Could make both...like you could do a "radio edit" and an "original mix"
Never know, might even catch on!
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warped_candykid
Advanced Member
United States
3,982 posts
Joined: Jan, 2004
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Posted - 2014/10/06 : 00:06:20
Interesting intros/outros seem to have a become a thing of the past. Many tracks now days just have a non-building intro, non-exiting outro; it's just the drum.
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