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strychnine
Advanced Member
Australia
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 Posted - 2003/06/16 : 23:53:39
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
But in this country, most artists don't get there money from tune sales, but from playing out at events, and the more people who attend the event the bigger percentage the top DJ's will recieve.
On the one hand, this makes the "support the artists by going to raves" option irrelevant for the most part for any country outside of the UK (since the UK artists play mainly in the UK).
On the other, it suggests that the economic impact of mp3 trafficking is negligible in the UK, as "most artists don't get there money from tune sales, but from playing out at events", leading, in turn, to the suggestion that while mp3 downloading is bad, it's not that bad (at least in the UK).
Are you saying that if you're outside the UK, you should buy the records because you can't support the artists by going to raves, while it's OK for UK residents to download because it really doesn't dent artist income that much?
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Simon
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Belgium
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 08:35:05
quote:
Originally posted by strychnine:
Are you saying that if you're outside the UK, you should buy the records because you can't support the artists by going to raves, while it's OK for UK residents to download because it really doesn't dent artist income that much?
Bah! me I'm not involved in this argument, I've kept my views to myslef, I think music is an art form and as an art form in this world people have to pay to see, hear, have the art. However music people get the chance to listen to music art through radio shows/stations which is already costing them less than other art lovers who get no freebies they either pay to see it hear it for the first time or not......no previews allowed there. I believe it should be paid for, People are always gonna take what they can for free....but it IS stealing. I buy my stuff.....but I don't particularly want to get caught up in this arguement. I just wanted to make it clear that most big UK Dj's rely on playing out to get there pennies and not relying on sales......in an ideal world it would be the other way around. I think it's harder to make a good song than to play songs out. So remember people Simon says music is an art and as an art it deserves to be paid for correctly.
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atomicb
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
621 posts
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60 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 08:49:33
'but I don't particularly want to get caught up in this arguement.'
Good idea that :S *ahem*
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Knightmare
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Belgium
1,700 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 09:25:18
I'm totaly pro-mp3, but I usually download tracks by eather unknown artists (usually webmasters) or really old tracks. When I download new trax , The quallity is usually not as good as on cd, so I buy the cd's anyway.
If it weren't 4 mod's, xm's, it's & mp3's, I would have kept on thinking that HHC was dead. Cuz round here it is you know. So, I guess i owe the mp3 world something.
If anyone knows where in belgium in East flanders I can buy HHC cd's, please, let me know!
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Edited by - Knightmare on 2003/06/17 09:30:09 |
strychnine
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 15:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
Bah! me I'm not involved in this argument ...
You just launched a 200-wd reply into the thread. You're involved, like it or not 
quote:
I just wanted to make it clear that most big UK Dj's rely on playing out to get there pennies and not relying on sales......
So ... what is your point exactly? That people should buy tunes so that the big UK DJ's don't have to play at raves?
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ryg0r
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 16:06:21
quote:
That people should buy tunes so that the big UK DJ's don't have to play at raves?
Somehow I think you missed the point.....
Artists depend on sales of records/cds for some form of an income. By people copying CD's/downling vinyl rips (which they don't own) they don't get anything.
Thats it.
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strychnine
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 17:44:31
^^ no, I didn't miss the point. I was just asking Simon to clarify his point with regards to his "most big UK Dj's rely on playing out to get there pennies and not relying on sales" comment.
If you look closely, you'll find that his comment is at somewhat of an odds with your "Artists depend on sales of records/cds for some form of an income" statement.
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ryg0r
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 18:11:03
yeah - somewhat.
But as I've been saying downloading a tune with out paying for it doesn't seem like stealing but it is.
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strychnine
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 19:43:36
^^ hmm yeah I think everyone's got that point down already. Intellectual property is, by definition, property, and the unconsented enjoyment of the benefits of such property without proper compensation to the owner is stealing. Simple.
Now, let me just ask this:
How many of you who've bought tape-packs would consider yourselves to have knowingly been receiving stolen property?
How many of you who've received unlicensed promotional CD's would say that you were stealing the income of the artists behind the tracks on those CD's?
How many of you realise that even playing out a record without prior permission of the copyright owner is a violation of copyright laws?
It seems to me that there is a widespread tendency to disregard these blatant contraventions of intellectual property laws as having enough promotional or commercial benefit to outweigh the corresponding deprivation of the owners' right to control the distribution of their work. With that in mind, it amazes me that there is such a widespread disregard for the promotional/commercial potential that 'soft' formats like mp3 and wma offer.
As I've mentioned before, 'hard' formats come bundled with a lot of costs extraneous to the artistic value of the music, which a lot of people aren't willing to pay. Like it or not, that gap between supply and demand will be filled by MP3, WMA, or whatever improved formats the future may bring, simply because they're well suited to it in terms of portability and ease of reproduction.
I'm not saying that it's right to trade in mp3s. What I'm saying is that as long as the industry keeps on maintaining this artificial price floor, it has no right to take the moral high ground on the issue. If one or two people are stealing, then it's black and white. If 90% of consumers are thieves, then there's obviously something seriously wrong with the economics and pointing the finger of blame isn't so straightforward.
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Edited by - strychnine on 2003/06/17 20:35:16 |
ryg0r
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 20:36:27
I'm wondering if they are rhetorical questions.
quote:
How many of you realise that even playing out a record without prior permission of the copyright owner is a violation of copyright laws?
I do 
However I would question the relevance of that statement to the topic. I'm not saying that everything that has ever been pressed onto vinyl should be/is liscenced to be played out - but just imagine it if I had to pay Scott Brown 5c every time his records are played out (maybe thats not such a bad idea  ) I don't think AS many dj's would buy his records. Its almost a forgone conclusion that if you buy a record (just for an example, MWX004) you can play it out.
Ask Silver if I'm wrong.
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Edited by - ryg0r on 2003/06/17 20:40:38 |
ryg0r
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 20:38:29
quote:
If 90% of consumers are thieves, then there's obviously something seriously wrong with the economics and pointing the finger of blame isn't so straightforward.
Thats not the best example - what about, say, the US and the so-called WoMD's? A vast majority believed them, but now it looks like they weren't telling the truth.
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whispering
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Finland
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 21:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by strychnine:
How many of you realise that even playing out a record without prior permission of the copyright owner is a violation of copyright laws?
Actually in finland its:
"Public performance
Any performance of music which takes place outside the domestic circle constitutes a public performance. The supply of music via Internet is also public. Teosto's permit is required for performances of both live and recorded music. The permit is required irrespective of whether or not a charge for admission is made. The permit must be acquired before the performance takes place. "
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strychnine
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Australia
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Posted - 2003/06/17 : 23:55:46
quote:
However I would question the relevance of that statement to the topic ... Its almost a forgone conclusion that if you buy a record (just for an example, MWX004) you can play it out.
I put it in to reinforce the point the legal argument against mp3 downloads is weakened by the widespread, systematic disregard for copyright laws.
quote:
Ask Silver if I'm wrong.
I don't have to.
quote:
Thats not the best example - what about, say, the US and the so-called WoMD's? A vast majority believed them, but now it looks like they weren't telling the truth.
That's not what I meant. You seem to have misread my comment, so I'll give it another shot ...
If one or two people steal from you, then fine, you are entitled to moral outrage. If 90% of your consumers are stealing, then it's not that simple. Somewhere along the line, the you f***ed up and excluded 90% of your market. What other industry can you think of where almost all consumption is made up of stolen product? It's mind-boggling to say the least, and in these circumstances, characterised by systematic law-breaking widespread moral apathy, I would argue that the legal and moral dimensions simply become irrelevant.
That, really, is my point. The mp3 trade hurt the recording industry economically, and the industry's response should've been to look at it as an economic issue of losing market share to a competing product. Instead, it's trying to wage a legal war in the courts (which, apart from being thoroughly useless, is looking more and more like a witch-hunt), and a moral war in the media against people who simply aren't receptive to moral persuasion. And the reason for this war? The fact that the industry wants these people to become its customers. Smart move, Recording Industry! Call them thieves, tell them that they're going to go to hell, send a handful to prison "as an example", and then market Britney's latest CD to the rest. Bravo.
What does that mean for you individuals out there? Nothing, really. You're entitled to your own moral judgment. It's just pointless try to use morality or ethics to sway someone away from downloading mp3's. Then again, if you're doing it whilst sitting on a pile of tape-packs and 'promo' (unlicensed) CD's then it's worse than pointless, it's hypocritical.
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Simon
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Belgium
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Posted - 2003/06/18 : 00:18:44
quote:
Originally posted by strychnine:
^^ no, I didn't miss the point. I was just asking Simon to clarify his point with regards to his "most big UK Dj's rely on playing out to get there pennies and not relying on sales" comment.
Well it's true they will earn more money from playing out at events than what there released tunes will get them. They will always release them though, because then they have stuff to play out, and of course they do it mainly for the love of the music and the fans. I'm not at all saying that because that's where they get more money from it's okay to download mp3's of there songs, as I stated it's not...that IS stealing, I see it not as a petty law where playing out a bought vinyl at an event is actually illegal without the artists permission, I see it as major fraud.
Now how do I get myself out of this here arguement, which I never intended to enter, but found myself drawn into it to give some of my views. Any Takers?
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silver
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Japan
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Posted - 2003/06/18 : 01:57:29
Yes top ranking UK DJ's can probally get more from 1 DJ gig than money from sales on a record but remember...
Not all artists are DJ's nor perform live!
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