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T O P I C R E V I E W
The Doc
Hardcore Heaven Summer Madness 3CD - released 29th August
Disc 1
Dougal & Gammer - Monster
Dougal & Gammer - Trust In Me
Darren Styles & Gammer - You & I
Dougal & Gammer - Orbit
Dougal & Gammer ft. Niki Mak - Back Home
Gammer & Whizzkid - Jump
Dougal, Gammer & JB-C ft. Jenna - Show Me The Way
Gammer & Klubfiller - Future Fuzz
Dougal, Gammer & JB-C ft. Jerome - No Way Back
Dougal & Gammer ft. Jerome - There For You
Gammer & JB-C - Bigger and Bolder
Dougal & Gammer - Your One
Dougal & Gammer ft. Jenna - All The Tears I've Cried (JB-C Remix)
Chris Fear vs Ajay - Catch The Light
Drumsound and Bassline Smith - Close (Dougal & Gammer Remix)
Andy Whitby & Klubfiller - Blam
Gammer & Cally Gage - Breakneck Bastard
Dougal & Gammer vs Klubfiller - Do What You Wanna Do
Chris Fear - Cameras Ready
Dougal & Gammer - Lifting Me Higher (Back to 97 Mix)
Disc 2
Sureal - You Take My Breath Away (Sy & Unknown Remix)
Sy & Unknown ft. Lou Lou - Love Can't Wait
Dance Assassins - Sail Away (Darren Styles Remix)
Sy & Re-Con - Meatfeast
Sy & Joey Riot - F*cking Sh*t Music
Sy & Unknown - My Forever Love
Sy & Unknown ft. Kirsten Joy - Superstar
Supreme & Mob - Cameo
Darren Styles - Burning Up
Sy & Technikore - Places Please
Sy & Unknown - The Steel Finger Part 2
Black & White - Get Ya Hands Up! (Original Mix)
Sy & Gammer - (I Think I'm Goin') Outta My Head
The Collective - Kick It (Sy & Unknown's 2011 Update)
Sy & Unknown - Psychopath 2011
Breeze & Technikore - Moments
Hixxy, Sy & Unknown - The Clit Commander 2011
Sy & Al Storm - Do You Love Your Hardcore? (Hardcore Heaven VIP Mix)
Al Storm vs Hardfroze - Don't Go Breakin My Heart (Mike Modulate Remix)
Chris Unknown & Re-Con - Ganja Man
Sy & Unknown - Pictures Of You
Brisk & Ham - Get On The Floor
Disc 3
Kurt ft. Sara - Sit & Wait (Exclusive Album Mix)
Gammer & Whizzkid - We Are The Vampires (Joey Riot Remix)
Q-Tex - Like An Angel (Kurt Remix)
Joey Riot & Seduction ft. James Warren - Time To Move On
Kurt & Boyle - Electro Stomp
Sy & Joey Riot - Wa-Ja-Mi-Call-It
Ricky Skull Crusher - Kinky Slinky
Raw Theory - Solarise
Joey Riot & Technikore - Broken
Al Storm - Werewolf (Joey Riot Remix)
Scott Brown - Don't You Worry (Joey Riot & Kurt Remix)
Prospect & Pinnacle - Zombie Nightclub
Joey Riot - You'll Never Know (HH Anthem 2011)
Himbo & Enemy - Everywhere I Turn (Kurt Remix)
Kurt & Marc Smith - Throw Ya Hands Up
Darren Styles & Re-Con - Like A Bitch (Joey Riot & Kurt Remix)
Kurt ft. Sara - Bang Banger (Exclusive Album Mix)
Endymion & The Viper - Smash
Destructive Tendencies - Smack My Pitch Up
Endymion & Nosferatu - Drunk With A Gun (Evil Activities Remix)
Kurt & Joey Riot - Rock Ya Hardcore (Kurt & Joey Riot 2011 Remix)
Gammer & Joey Riot - This Is The Reckoning
Doesnt look like its worth a penny in my eyes... Showcase mixes are released all the time. Most of the Disc 1 tunes are on the Kool radio show did Gammer did the other week I think. Thats available on his Soundcloud page...
In this case I pay respect to people like Spit who release their showcase mixes free ;)
The Doc
quote:Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
This is pretty much 3 showcase mixes.
Doesnt look like its worth a penny in my eyes... Showcase mixes are released all the time. Most of the Disc 1 tunes are on the Kool radio show did Gammer did the other week I think. Thats available on his Soundcloud page...
In this case I pay respect to people like Spit who release their showcase mixes free ;)
yep! they've gone down the I'll play my tracks and remixes route! (which we get now on CD packs anyway)
jenks
Those tracklists seriously are pathetic. They're really rinsing this for every penny they can aren't they?
latininxtc
there's nothing wrong with showcases mixes if done properly. Hardcore 2010 and Euphoria Hardcore come to mind. and also for awhile all of Scott Brown's cds on Bonkers, as well as other CDs from various volumes, have all been a sort of showcase mix. Can't really hate on many of these I've mentioned as they were done well imo. I will say that this isn't looking all that great mainly b/c a lot of what's being produced by these six aren't to my liking much lately.
JayHH86
Looks good to me, I'll be buying it. Plenty of stuff on there that I've not heard.
Gammer's been talking a lot lately about how much he's enjoyed producing the vocal anthemy stuff. Looking at those track titles on the Dougal & Gammer CD, a lot of them look like soppy vocal stuff. My favourite kind of Hardcore.
So, despite all you slags having a whinge, I am really rather looking forward to this.
8D
I have to agree with Latin and Jay, looking forward to this
Showcase mixes can be good since most of the songs are produced by the same people they just fit together better, but at the same time that can make it a little boring
It's just awesome to have a hardcore album coming out on legit CD
any hardcore album! its a rare thing these days
and I also heard what gammer said about going back to the "old style" pree ****ing excited, that guy shouldnt be wasting his talent on simple bassline shit
JayHH86
quote:Originally posted by 8D:
that guy shouldnt be wasting his talent on simple bassline shit
Although it's obviously producer preference and all that shit, but I totally agree. Him and Dougal (whether it's him more than Dougal or whatever) make the most amazingly uplifting vocal stuff it's unbelievable. If you go on trackitdown.net or something and look through the Essential Platinum back catolgue, it's literally amazing how many amazing vocal tunes they've made.
Undoubtedly it gets boring making that stuff all the time, but that's what Hardcore is to me. I totally understand that he wants to go out and make minimal-core, but I know for a fact that soppy vocal crap is where his heart is, and that tracklist proves it to me.
I'm really pissed, so I can't be held responsible for anything I've just said.
warped_candykid
Aaaaaand no Mc'ing like on True Hardcore, so I'm actually pretty excited about this release; just not liking the fact that male vocals are becoming more dominant.
redwingz
I look at this album tracklist and its nothing that I didnt expect from these 6 DJs, I can see alot of it being disappointing.
I wont be buying it, in fact HU is probably the only hardcore album I will bother with. This is the type of album that makes me tired and bored of hardcore and why Im losing any passion for it. Totally self-indulgent tracklists, tracks by themselves released on labels owned by themselves to ensure they get 100% of the money. Hardcore is definitely becoming like a money grabbing exercise, its like they thought 'This could be our only chance to mix an album with the way the scene is going, lets pack it with out own stuff and pull them advances, publishing and royalty cheques in!'
I can imagine the CD advert now... :(
On a sidenote...with Unknown doing this, Sharkey quitting, Hixxy, Styles and Breeze doing CXH and Recon & Squad-E doing HTID, it makes any chance of a new Bonkers coming out soon look very bleak. All the 'top tier' DJs are tied up with other albums and HU5 is using alot of the 'new' or 'fresh' talent.
silver
I think it looks good, these are not really compliation albums they are artist albums, just have to deal with it if you don't like it. I'm always up for new tunes from these guys.
Thumpa does okay on his CD's, Hardcore Addiction does okay as well, these are nearly 100% opposite, being all tracks are from different artists nearly.
JayHH86
quote:Originally posted by redwingz:
I wont be buying it, in fact HU is probably the only hardcore album I will bother with. This is the type of album that makes me tired and bored of hardcore and why Im losing any passion for it. Totally self-indulgent tracklists, tracks by themselves released on labels owned by themselves to ensure they get 100% of the money. Hardcore is definitely becoming like a money grabbing exercise, its like they thought 'This could be our only chance to mix an album with the way the scene is going, lets pack it with out own stuff and pull them advances, publishing and royalty cheques in!'
I appreciate what you're saying Craig, but if it was you in their position, would you really do it any different? You've been asked to do a mix for this album. You've been asked for a reason. That reason is because the people behind the album want to bring your sound/style/selection to one mix on the album. Despite your popularity within the scene, you're barely making any money. So, you wouldn't take the opportunity to saturate your mix on the album with material from you as artists, and other artists on your label?
I don't want to get into this "Hardcore's a business, and when there's very little money to go around anyway..." discussion. Everyone's read more than enough posts about it. And besides, you run a label and probably know, substantially, more about it all than me. But I don't understand this bizarre attitude towards the more successful artists, where they are expected to just step aside and let others get involved, or actively encourage and promote their own competition. No one does that when they are working their way up at the beginning - then, it's all self promotion, self promotion. But now someone suddenly becomes successful - they're seen as some kind of inconsiderate, money grabbing wanker for looking out for themselves and pushing their own material. Fine - in the form of a tracklist like this, it does look self indulgent, as you say, but that is only a bad thing if the tunes turn out to be shit.
I haven't heard something like 80% of that tracklist, maybe even more - so I'm not going to come out and say it looks terrible. Equally, I can't say it looks amazing either. I'll have to buy it and listen. Am I pissed off these are essentially showcase mixes? Not especially, no. There hasn't been a Dougal & Gammer mix/CD for a long while, some of Sy & Technikore's collabs have been enjoyable, and I've always liked the Quosh sound in general. Despite some remixes I reckon are unnecessary, the Lethal Theory mix will be a decent change of pace.
If this CD was the only, or one of two albums, coming out this year - would I be pissed off at the lack of variation, artist-wise? Yes. I would. But there is so much stuff available these days it's unreal. It's no wonder people are jumping at the chance to push their own stuff, with so much else out there. There's a 3CD Lethal Theory album on the way, there's HU5, there's HTID 4 (probably), the usual Clubland X-Treme at Christmas, Trackmaster Music have got a label album coming out, NSR yourselves released an album earlier this year - same goes for Thumpa with Die Another Day.
I think there's just such a massive selection of tunage out there, and I find it difficult to get pissed off, and be dismissive, about the tracklisting on one album.
8D
quote:Originally posted by JayHH86:
quote:Originally posted by 8D:
that guy shouldnt be wasting his talent on simple bassline shit
Although it's obviously producer preference and all that shit, but I totally agree. Him and Dougal (whether it's him more than Dougal or whatever) make the most amazingly uplifting vocal stuff it's unbelievable. If you go on trackitdown.net or something and look through the Essential Platinum back catolgue, it's literally amazing how many amazing vocal tunes they've made.
Undoubtedly it gets boring making that stuff all the time, but that's what Hardcore is to me. I totally understand that he wants to go out and make minimal-core, but I know for a fact that soppy vocal crap is where his heart is, and that tracklist proves it to me.
I'm really pissed, so I can't be held responsible for anything I've just said.
I agree that it would prolly get boring after awhile, and even in sets the odd bassline drop is a nice change, but its become to common and overdone now, and its just nowhere nearly as good as "proper" hardcore
dont worry I was pissed when I wrote my post too :P
djDMS
Sadly i agree. These are 3 pretty strong pairings and i for one have no problem listening to (or buying) an album mixed by them. This is nowhere near the first album of it's kind and i doubt it'll be the last. Yes, the apparent lack of variety is a concern but if it's good it's good - whoever features on it. To be honest, i'm just glad there are still CD's being released because in many respects the scene is on it's arse so any project like this is a big gamble. One final point - I wonder how many people would criticise HU5 if it turned out to be the same? That's right, not many!
latininxtc
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
Sadly i agree. These are 3 pretty strong pairings and i for one have no problem listening to (or buying) an album mixed by them. This is nowhere near the first album of it's kind and i doubt it'll be the last. Yes, the apparent lack of variety is a concern but if it's good it's good - whoever features on it. To be honest, i'm just glad there are still CD's being released because in many respects the scene is on it's arse so any project like this is a big gamble. One final point - I wonder how many people would criticise HU5 if it turned out to be the same? That's right, not many!
i'd say HU2010 was somewhat of a showcase mix, and ppl did complain about it. I agree that there isn't that much variety in the CDs, but in this financial market and with so many ppl not buying CDs anymore b/c of the financial market and/or pirating music, you have to cut corners somewhere in order to give a better chance of gaining a profit.
redwingz
quote:Originally posted by JayHH86:
quote:Originally posted by redwingz:
I wont be buying it, in fact HU is probably the only hardcore album I will bother with. This is the type of album that makes me tired and bored of hardcore and why Im losing any passion for it. Totally self-indulgent tracklists, tracks by themselves released on labels owned by themselves to ensure they get 100% of the money. Hardcore is definitely becoming like a money grabbing exercise, its like they thought 'This could be our only chance to mix an album with the way the scene is going, lets pack it with out own stuff and pull them advances, publishing and royalty cheques in!'
I appreciate what you're saying Craig, but if it was you in their position, would you really do it any different? You've been asked to do a mix for this album. You've been asked for a reason. That reason is because the people behind the album want to bring your sound/style/selection to one mix on the album. Despite your popularity within the scene, you're barely making any money. So, you wouldn't take the opportunity to saturate your mix on the album with material from you as artists, and other artists on your label?
I don't want to get into this "Hardcore's a business, and when there's very little money to go around anyway..." discussion. Everyone's read more than enough posts about it. And besides, you run a label and probably know, substantially, more about it all than me. But I don't understand this bizarre attitude towards the more successful artists, where they are expected to just step aside and let others get involved, or actively encourage and promote their own competition. No one does that when they are working their way up at the beginning - then, it's all self promotion, self promotion. But now someone suddenly becomes successful - they're seen as some kind of inconsiderate, money grabbing wanker for looking out for themselves and pushing their own material. Fine - in the form of a tracklist like this, it does look self indulgent, as you say, but that is only a bad thing if the tunes turn out to be shit.
I haven't heard something like 80% of that tracklist, maybe even more - so I'm not going to come out and say it looks terrible. Equally, I can't say it looks amazing either. I'll have to buy it and listen. Am I pissed off these are essentially showcase mixes? Not especially, no. There hasn't been a Dougal & Gammer mix/CD for a long while, some of Sy & Technikore's collabs have been enjoyable, and I've always liked the Quosh sound in general. Despite some remixes I reckon are unnecessary, the Lethal Theory mix will be a decent change of pace.
If this CD was the only, or one of two albums, coming out this year - would I be pissed off at the lack of variation, artist-wise? Yes. I would. But there is so much stuff available these days it's unreal. It's no wonder people are jumping at the chance to push their own stuff, with so much else out there. There's a 3CD Lethal Theory album on the way, there's HU5, there's HTID 4 (probably), the usual Clubland X-Treme at Christmas, Trackmaster Music have got a label album coming out, NSR yourselves released an album earlier this year - same goes for Thumpa with Die Another Day.
I think there's just such a massive selection of tunage out there, and I find it difficult to get pissed off, and be dismissive, about the tracklisting on one album.
Yeah i fully understand your point and in their position, I probably wouldnt do it heaps different. I would probably include more of my label productions from other artists than my own work.
As for riches....dont you worry about people like Sy and Dougal, they are both doing alright with or without this album ;)
What has gone down on Ush though about this album is quite interesting with Joey Riot and Kurt getting into a slagging match with the forum and the like.
Warnman
quote:Originally posted by redwingz:
What has gone down on Ush though about this album is quite interesting with Joey Riot and Kurt getting into a slagging match with the forum and the like.
That was the only mistake they have done...
I only can repeat what someone else on USH has written before:"Where are Dougal & Gammer and Sy & Unknown?"
I know a lot of Riot & Kurt's tracks are used in their part of the CD, but you simply can't blame them to be the only persons, who are available.
latininxtc
quote:Originally posted by Warnman:
quote:Originally posted by redwingz:
What has gone down on Ush though about this album is quite interesting with Joey Riot and Kurt getting into a slagging match with the forum and the like.
That was the only mistake they have done...
I only can repeat what someone else on USH has written before:"Where are Dougal & Gammer and Sy & Unknown?"
I know a lot of Riot & Kurt's tracks are used in their part of the CD, but you simply can't blame them to be the only persons, who are available.
i find it hilarious that those arseholes are bitching about it over on USH. they complain on a daily basis that the bigname producers are detached from the online community and fans and they are rarely acknowledged. Joey Riot has always posted both here and on USH, and it's mostly been positive. But when someone comes and defend themselves, it gets these animals even more riled up.
seriously those douchebags at USH don't know what they want, and their sole purpose is to make everyone miserable and spew such negative crap. it may be an 'honest' site, but it certainly is also a negative and depressing one too.
now personally I can see why ppl are getting mad at both Joey & Kurt b/c their posts are a little bit douchebaggy, BUT seriously how much more hate can one take before just finally getting fed up with it and just letting it all out. it's not that dougal, gammer, sy & unknown are more 'professional' in handling the situation. most likely, it's that they don't give a shit to what ppl have to say about it, and also don't waste their time to know what the online community actually thinks. I know I don't care what they have to say over at USH as no one who posts there exclusively have anything worth reading.
Bonkers4Life
Very, Very, Very limited Hixxy on this. Im buying it
warped_candykid
Wow...this is a pretty decent tune!!
Just hope it's this fast on the cd!
whittle1
CD 1 - Dougal & Gammer
CD 2 - Sy & Unknown
CD 3 - Lethal Theory
warped_candykid
quote:Originally posted by whittle1:
CD 1 - Dougal & Gammer
CD 2 - Sy & Unknown
CD 3 - Lethal Theory
Are you sure?
acidfluxxbass
lol, if we look at it that way...
1 - Essential Plat
2 - Quosh
3 - Lethal Theory
Craigavon raver
If this was being released a few years ago i would be absolutly buzzing my tits of not so much so this time but i was still kind of intriged when i seen it
I also havn't heard a single track on the cd either so i reckon i'll buy this as ain't much seems to be coming out,plus havn't bought anything with these on it in ages,but thats prob a good thing
warped_candykid
Bump
warped_candykid
Joey says this is a 1996 Scott Brown classic called "Don't You Worry", but I have the original version of this track listed as Q-Tex-Get On Up, I can't find a Scott Brown-"Don't You Worry."
The Doc
If anyone likes to buy download versions of albums (not me) its only 5.99 on play.com!
acidfluxxbass
quote:Originally posted by The Doc:
If anyone likes to buy download versions of albums (not me) its only 5.99 on play.com!
Still not worth it imo
warped_candykid
quote:Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
quote:Originally posted by The Doc:
If anyone likes to buy download versions of albums (not me) its only 5.99 on play.com!
Still not worth it imo
How is this different than Hardcore Euphoria? Hardcore Euphoria was a pretty stompin' album, so I'm looking forward to this album.
latininxtc
quote:Originally posted by warped_candykid:
quote:Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
quote:Originally posted by The Doc:
If anyone likes to buy download versions of albums (not me) its only 5.99 on play.com!
Still not worth it imo
How is this different than Hardcore Euphoria? Hardcore Euphoria was a pretty stompin' album, so I'm looking forward to this album.
my thoughts exactly. I'll definitely make a decision after I hear a proper preview of this album if i'll purchase it. would be awesome if they did a mixed & unmixed & dj friendly bundle!
warped_candykid
quote:Originally posted by latininxtc:
quote:Originally posted by warped_candykid:
quote:Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
quote:Originally posted by The Doc:
If anyone likes to buy download versions of albums (not me) its only 5.99 on play.com!
Still not worth it imo
How is this different than Hardcore Euphoria? Hardcore Euphoria was a pretty stompin' album, so I'm looking forward to this album.
my thoughts exactly. I'll definitely make a decision after I hear a proper preview of this album if i'll purchase it. would be awesome if they did a mixed & unmixed & dj friendly bundle!
It would be awesome if they would hurry up and post the clips on juno!! >_<
warped_candykid
Latininxtc, you know what would be so cool? If you decide to buy this album, you could buy me a copy too, and I'll repay you buy sending you some beads and string so you can get started on that candy brigade we talked about in the other thread!
latininxtc
quote:Originally posted by warped_candykid:
Latininxtc, you know what would be so cool? If you decide to buy this album, you could buy me a copy too, and I'll repay you buy sending you some beads and string so you can get started on that candy brigade we talked about in the other thread!
djDMS
Just cancelled my subscription to 'Old farts monthly' so managed to get the download today. And you know what....it ain't half bad!
First impressions (subject to change) -
Dougal & Gammer - Lots of good stuff here, nice mixture of anthems and slightly tougher (and minimal) tunes.
Kurt & Riot - Again, good stuff. I've always liked the Lethal Theory sound so no complaints here
Sy & Unknown - I'll comment when Amazon get back to me about the wrong mix they sent - because i appear to have received one from 2006!
latininxtc
so it's available to download? hmm will have to consider getting the digital version instead
so far from hearing the previews on the first 2 cds i'm liking it so far. a bit funny that both dougal & gammer & sy & unknown cds are almost difficult to differentiate as they both have the same style of hardcore on there. definitely wasn't the case when the 4 of them worked on Euphoria Hardcore. I have yet to hear Joey & Kurt's mix, but 2 out of 3 i'm already considering buying it. I'll have to wait until HU5 comes out so that way I get both of them together. Time for bed I'll listen to the previews for cd 3 later
Vladel
The dougal & gammer cd is pretty poor tbh with some really sub standard tunes and soem even worse. the most negative aspect is all the sub 2 min tracks, especially the one minuite stupid gammer noise parts. I think there was one track i liked on the whole disk which was a huge dissapointment.
The Sy & Unknown CD is much better with some great tracks. Superstar is a particular highlight and the only dissapointment is the last 6 tracks or so were pretty bad.
Not sure about the lethal theory disk. Broken is a great track without that stupid electro shit in the middle and would track of the compo if it wasn't for that. I've always said that 90% of lethal theory's talent is just in joey riot and the CD shows that for me.
acidfluxxbass
Seen the lengths for these 'unmixed' tracks.
Surely they're all just radio edits?
Heard the full version of You & I, and it is only a radio edit.
If people think unmixed will mean mixable, they'll be way off.
djDMS
quote:Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
Seen the lengths for these 'unmixed' tracks.
Surely they're all just radio edits?
Heard the full version of You & I, and it is only a radio edit.
If people think unmixed will mean mixable, they'll be way off.
Yeah, the majority are more like radio edits and some are even shorter but there are still quite a few long enough to mix in and out of.
Bonkers4Life
Yep radio edits. I was sadz when i got it and it was all edits. Tear....
But the mixes are just like OMFG. All three mixes were freakin awesome. Loved it
acidfluxxbass
Just saw 2 adverts roll on Channel 4. Why the **** is the music pitched up to like 190bpm?
It made my brother want to shoot himself.... I agreed. They say that music is too fast for that many people to like it, so they go make it even faster!
The Doc
Its made Number 12 in the official Compilation Chart, not bad I suppose, bought it yesterday from Asda for 8.97 going to give it a listen this week!
Wilky
I got mine from.Asda..
best mix is joey and Kurt... quality mix..
second is gammer and dougal..
the sy and unknown mix is just pure shite littered with remixes.. completely against what at said in the podcast..
acidfluxxbass
I hope you guys didnt blow your budget for this year. HU5 is a must buy, no excuses!!
Wilky
I'm getting hcu5I'm getting hcu5
warped_candykid
quote:Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
Just saw 2 adverts roll on Channel 4. Why the **** is the music pitched up to like 190bpm?
It made my brother want to shoot himself.... I agreed. They say that music is too fast for that many people to like it, so they go make it even faster!
I've only seen the 1 tv ad on youtube that I posted in the thread. The songs sounded the tempo they are in the mixes...which is no where near 190. I do wish more DJs would follow Brisk's style and pitch the tempo above 180bpm on cd mixes. And ask yourself, do you really want the people who already think it's too fast to actually like the music? I mean, what's the point of slowing it down for them, cause then it wouldn't be Hardcore.
djDMS
quote:Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
I hope you guys didnt blow your budget for this year. HU5 is a must buy, no excuses!!
The 4.99 for Hardcore heaven was just about worth it, should be able to save up enough to get HU5 as well.
Wilky
where u get it for 4.99 from?
djDMS
Download was 4.99 from Amazon.
Wilky
ah right, I bought the actual CD
Craigavon raver
My copy should be here 2mara,might get a chance to listen to some of it lol
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not so much so this time but i was still kind of intriged when i seen it 
