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Karthy
Okay can anyone effectively define the two? It's annoyed me for so long, I've been taught that UK Hardcore is just an evolved Happy Hardcore (Beefier samples, bit slower possibly) which seems very silly so I'm kinda questioning it.
The cheesy UK Hardcore is so similar to Happy Hardcore that there may aswell be no difference, yet there is the minimal drops side of UK Hardcore that shows alot more different from the cheesy side of it than between cheesy UK Hardcore and Happy Hardcore.
Do I have it all wrong or am I in some way correct and the whole defining of genres genuinely crap?
If I am right, is HHC even made anymore by anyone?
Audio Warfare
Happy Hardcore - Stuff from the 90's. It was actually around the same speed but DJ's tended to pitch things up more. Trance sounds did creep in towards the end with a few guys such as Scott Brown but tended to have stab leads, bigger kicks but a less obvious bass.
Some people would also argue that only the happier breakbeat stuff that was around in the early 90's is Happy Hardcore, just to confuse things. ;)
UK Hardcore - 2000/2001ish to current time. Starting with the early Raver Baby's etc. Takes influence from more modern dance music, Trance at first then Scouse, now Electro etc.
Some people would argue they are one and the same but they are quite distinct. It is of course all under the genre Hardcore though.
Triquatra
^ this!
Mortis is still making it, I like to think i am, but i've been concentrating on other genres recently, i've only ever put about 10% of the stuff i produce online, the rest of it sits on my hard drive gathering dust
Karthy
So really it is alot to do with the age? If I look back through all the bonkers albums (listening to one song from each) you can hear a slow transition, but I don't understand why it is based off age. I mean surely you can't just say somethings a new genre just because the sound evolved a bit (otherwise there'd be billions of different dubstep genres).
I know they all pretty much derived from the same thing, but cheesy UK Hardcore is still HHC in my eyes because the structure is generally the same, it just uses different and more evolved samples, with much better production. Whereas the difference between lets say Gabber and HHC is much more obvious (in that there is actually a difference other than date of release )
Triquatra
if you made a happy hardcore track right now it would still be happy hardcore
so in that respect it isnt really age - it just so happens that that style was made during that time period
Audio Warfare
quote:Originally posted by Karthy:
So really it is alot to do with the age? If I look back through all the bonkers albums (listening to one song from each) you can hear a slow transition, but I don't understand why it is based off age. I mean surely you can't just say somethings a new genre just because the sound evolved a bit (otherwise there'd be billions of different dubstep genres).
I know they all pretty much derived from the same thing, but cheesy UK Hardcore is still HHC in my eyes because the structure is generally the same, it just uses different and more evolved samples, with much better production. Whereas the difference between lets say Gabber and HHC is much more obvious (in that there is actually a difference other than date of release )
Not all to do with age, no. more to do with the fact that Happy Hardcore pretty much fell on its arse at the end of the decade and barely anyone was making it. Then something new came along from most of the same guys that took off (UK Hardcore). They sound very different to me, a lot more different than say Hardstyle and Hard Trance when Hardstyle first started.
I don't think the new cheese and the old Happy Hardcore cheese sound similar at all personally. Different vibe to most of it.
quote:Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
if you made a happy hardcore track right now it would still be happy hardcore
Exactly.
Warnman
quote:Originally posted by Audio Warfare:
Some people would also argue that only the happier breakbeat stuff that was around in the early 90's is Happy Hardcore, just to confuse things. ;)
But isn't this point the original definition of UK Hardcore (as the connecting link between Jungle and Happy Hardcore/Drum'n Bass)?
warped_candykid
I still call it Happy Hardcore because it's the same genre, same artists, but just a different sound. Country has evolved, but it's still called Country. Pop music has evovled, but it's still called pop. It's pointless to call it "UK Hardcore" when it's been made in the UK throughout the 90s. I acknowledge that people consider the new stuff "UK Hardcore" and if that's what they want to call it, then fine, but it seems rather pointless to me...just sayin'.
Triquatra
quote:Originally posted by warped_candykid:
I still call it Happy Hardcore because it's the same genre, same artists, but just a different sound. Country has evolved, but it's still called Country. Pop music has evovled, but it's still called pop. It's pointless to call it "UK Hardcore" when it's been made in the UK throughout the 90s. I acknowledge that people consider the new stuff "UK Hardcore" and if that's what they want to call it, then fine, but it seems rather pointless to me...just sayin'.
Country is the blanket term, just as "hardcore" is the blanket term
Country musics styles are evolving all the time just like Hardcore music styles are evolving
Hillbilly Boogie evolved into Rockabilly in just the same way that Happy Hardcore eventually evolved into UK Hardcore
and Pop isnt a genre per say - pop stands for "popular" so thats always going to evolve, change, and cover a wide variety of genres
personally i've always thought UK Hardcore was daft as we arent the only ones who make it
much prefer just new school hardcore or maybe 'Upfront Hardcore'
or just hardcore.
warped_candykid
quote:Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
quote:Originally posted by warped_candykid:
I still call it Happy Hardcore because it's the same genre, same artists, but just a different sound. Country has evolved, but it's still called Country. Pop music has evovled, but it's still called pop. It's pointless to call it "UK Hardcore" when it's been made in the UK throughout the 90s. I acknowledge that people consider the new stuff "UK Hardcore" and if that's what they want to call it, then fine, but it seems rather pointless to me...just sayin'.
Country is the blanket term, just as "hardcore" is the blanket term
Country musics styles are evolving all the time just like Hardcore music styles are evolving
Hillbilly Boogie evolved into Rockabilly in just the same way that Happy Hardcore eventually evolved into UK Hardcore
and Pop isnt a genre per say - pop stands for "popular" so thats always going to evolve, change, and cover a wide variety of genres
personally i've always thought UK Hardcore was daft as we arent the only ones who make it
much prefer just new school hardcore or maybe 'Upfront Hardcore'
or just hardcore.
I'm fine with just Hardcore, but then you have people gripe about that as well.
Warnman
quote:Originally posted by warped_candykid:
I still call it Happy Hardcore because it's the same genre, same artists, but just a different sound. Country has evolved, but it's still called Country. Pop music has evovled, but it's still called pop. It's pointless to call it "UK Hardcore" when it's been made in the UK throughout the 90s. I acknowledge that people consider the new stuff "UK Hardcore" and if that's what they want to call it, then fine, but it seems rather pointless to me...just sayin'.
I agree with you!
The technical equipment has improved and new sounds were "invented". New influences have had the chance to conquer every single genre that is out there.
I'd love, if someone tries to produce the old, innocent and "childish" sound of the happy 90s. On the other hand, I'd call me a total retard, simply ignoring modern developments of the music.
Karthy
quote:Originally posted by warped_candykid:
I still call it Happy Hardcore because it's the same genre, same artists, but just a different sound. Country has evolved, but it's still called Country. Pop music has evovled, but it's still called pop. It's pointless to call it "UK Hardcore" when it's been made in the UK throughout the 90s. I acknowledge that people consider the new stuff "UK Hardcore" and if that's what they want to call it, then fine, but it seems rather pointless to me...just sayin'.
Exactly what I'm trying to say :P
As for the blanket term of "Hardcore".. around here Hardcore is death metal or whatever it is, not sure about the proper definition or anything because I'm not into it, but if I mentioned hardcore here they wouldn't think about Happy/UK Hardcore and generally UK Hardcore is a much less popular term than Happy Hardcore. Most people that don't follow the rave scene don't have a clue what UK Hardcore is and aren't particularly interested... mention Happy Hardcore and they have a more positive response.
I strongly believe defining the genre as UK Hardcore is kind of counter productive, considering there isn't all that much difference in the structure or feelings it gives, it's just the power that differentiates the 2 and Happy Hardcore would most likely get the genre alot more attention but at the same time wouldn't cause many people to rant about it not being happy hardcore...
Archefluxx
The question to answer all questions.
The change came about around the millennia when Hardcore was forced to suddenly adapt to the ever changing world.
I consider my own music UK Hardcore, but I recognise that some of it is not, because Im often collaborate with people overseas. When I refer to my music, I sometimes have to describe it as "Happy Hardcore". While I understand that warped candy kid has a good analogy, I think tha hardcores change was a much more rapid one, and the renaissance was a turning point and the change was sudden. It was a reformed genre. While a country can evolve, its name will change. Hense why the USSR is now just Russia, or when Jay had his vagina surgury he became a ladyman, rather than just man, and so on. Things change, some more suddenly than others, embrace it, or be the one left behind. Hi Smoogie!
Hard2Get
The key is in the name.
Wilky
UK hardcore just sounds sooooo shit, especially when have producers in Australia, USA, Japan and all over the world makin this UK hardcore stuff... its just happy hardcore or hardcore time to drop the UK bit... it even just call it hardcore dance as u get hardcore rock too...
Smoogie
Happy Hardcore was an off shoot the the Old Skool breakbeat sounds. You had 'Jungle' the dark heavey breakbeat sounds from 91 onwards, then you had the 'hands in air' piano tunes with the vocals and the feel good feel. You had the organ rifts and the 'Belgium Infulence'. The two styles where subdevided to Jungle & Happy Hardcore around 93/94 but infact as late as 95 there was still the same style being played out. Think DJ Vibes, Dougal Slipmatt ect
Bouncy Techno came from Scotland and had very little breakbeat and used the harder more Gabber like kicks but with the English sounding organs but less cheesy pianos and vocals, big around 93-96 & labels like Evolution being amoungst the big names. Later (96 onwards) Evo stuff sounded more Happier though but then other Scottish artists went for the darker Gabber.
Bouncy Techno was also big in The Netherlands and they invnted their own style off labels like Dwarf and Babyboom around 94. Then the big guys at Rotterdam such as Paul Elstak started making happier tunes with the English breakbeats but the more Eurodance style lyrics along with hard kicks, cathcy rifts and the organs. Pengo label from 95-97 was amoungst the biggest names of the times. Dutch Happy Hardcore was huge around 1994-1997 but then died out in favor of more darker Trance orinated Gabber and then there was 'Nu Style Gabber'
In 1995 English Happy Hardcore went along the Dutch & Scottish lines with harder kicks along side of the familier breakbeats and organs and pianos. Vocals became more common. Arund 1997 there was a Trance offshoot 'Trancecore which was soon taking over by 1999 which most Happy tunes started being Tranceore orinated. Trancecore broke off into 'Freeform' in 1999 and evolved throughout the 2000s neglecting the happy infulences but often mantaing the breakbeats and harder kicks. Some more Old Skool infulences where used in some tracks sometimes being refered to as 'Bouncy Freeform'
Around 1996 the 'devide' between English & Scottish Hardcore broke down so there was just 'UK Hardcore' to compare to other Hardcore elsewhere. UK Hardcore for the mid and late 90s was a mixture of Happy Hardcore & Trancecore.
In the early 2000s the Happy tag was dropped. Infact they still made Happy Hardcore but it was mostly Trance driven less pianos and not as 'silly' and started to see more ties to the commercial dance of the day. Old classics where being remade into dance tunes (Flip & Fill where behind alot of this) and the new Hardcore was now being more of a faster version of commercial dance. The Raverbaby label being the biggest such label along with New Essential Platinum, Quosh & Scott Brown's Evolution. That was only really happening in the UK so UK Hardcore compared to the Dutch Hardcore that was Nu Style Gabber however you where getting UK sounding tunes else where such as Australia & The States so they where be known as 'US Hardcore' or Auscore. Japan had their own version 'Jcore'
So UK Hardcore was the 'Mainstream' style of the UK while Freeform, also a UK style had broke off from the mainstream would also find popularity else where (such as FinRG)
The Bonkers style was nearly always UK Hardcore starting off with mostly English but some Scottish (and in the very early days Dutch Hardcore) but as it evolved it coverd all styles of UK Hardcore, both the mainstrem 'Upfront Hardcore' (raverbaby, Quosh, Evo ect) & Freeform (Sharkey, Marc Smith, Kevin Energy ect) and Scott Brown would also include some Gabber being either his own (UK Gabber?) along with Dutch & maybe German, Italian who continued the Gabber trend.
Happy Hardcore in the 90s was also produced in Germany & Italy in the mid 90s and in The States & Australia into the early 2000s.
Warnman
Wow, now that is what I call a big bunch of information.
I still will call everything Happy Hardcore, but this summary is very interesting.
Thanks a lot, Smoogie!
The Doc
quote:Originally posted by Warnman:
Wow, now that is what I call a big bunch of information.
I still will call everything Happy Hardcore, but this summary is very interesting.
Thanks a lot, Smoogie!
as Smoogie was about 7 when the name "happy hardcore" was made, I think we can safely say he knows f**k all! As I was raving my arse off in them days, I can safely say the term Happy Hardcore was given to the simple, and some might say childish music being released in 94/95 like steamtrain, toytown, discoland ect which every DJ and producer would make one or two tracks, while carrying on making normal banging hardcore, basically it took off with the ravers as an antidote to the normal tracks at a rave, believe me in the early days hardcore was still hardcore!
Archefluxx
I dont think Smoogie's actually far off...
cruelcore1
Eventhough UK Hardcore contains commercial elements, it lost a plenty of popularity. I have shown it to people and many loved it, but they have like 0% Hardcore sources. Its impossible for them to discover a track without my assistance. I mean, people search for "techno" which doesnt bring Hardcore at the top of the list.
Everybody are into House, Trance like more "stable" and "defined" electronic genres. UKHC is "stable" and "defined", eventhough not as much, but I guess its just too fast, and it evolved too slowly. After all, young people are into Dance music, rarely old folks, so it's impossible for them to know about Happy Hardcore, Hardcore in general, or any other old stuff.
But there r still those "crazy" guys (in a good way) who are into Dubstep. Its rlly a wicked genre. Maybe UKHC will become popular one day too.
rafferty
There was a bit a rivalry between the two scenes. The amount of unlicensed bootlegs that were done from dutch Hardcore tracks in the UK and vice versa was plenty.
Seems to be alot of the old Dutch happy hardcore artists have moved on to hardstyle now days though. The Prophet and Dj Isaac to name a few.
Maybe I am being biased being English but I think the UK had a lot more good happy hardcore producers than the Netherlands. We were far more creative and melodic and our music was always more dj friendly too.
Samination
The unlicensed bootlegs the dutch might have are probably outshined by the likes of Kaos and Vinylgroover :P
Guest
hardcore is hardcore to the world
uk hardcore is called uk hardcore in the uk, and happy hardcore the rest of the world where hardcore is hardcore
everyone got used to bass, and mainstream gabba became hardcore and took over, so the names changes, with the helping hand of drum & bass and dubstep etc all dying and becoming gay scenes
Smoogie
I was going to reply but then realised I already did in 2011...
But as I said the first time around, it's routes are varied but I would say early 90s
In fact having listened through some 1992 Old Skool, you can here some styles that were used much later than that with people like Seduction being more on the happy side compared to the earlier 'Jungleists'
The term UK Hardcore is misleading as any style from the UK is in theory 'UK Hardcore' but I think that might have been a term that Americans and Australians used to distinguish against the Dutch Hardcore or German Hardcore ect.
Most Aus Hardcore I heard always sounds similar to the UK Hardcore so in a way, it is also UK Hardcore but from Aus, and who is not to say that a large number of Aussies are not descendants from Brits anyway?
Freeform itself is UK Hardcore if it is made in the UK, as would any UK made Gabber.
Some people used to call it Upfront Hardcore a lot, some called it mainstream and a few of us here used to even call it 'softcore'
DJ SMALOUM
warped_candykid
Put on Bonkers 1...
Put on Bonkers 9...
Put on Bonkers 17...
Put on Clubland Hardcore 8...
Put on Hardcore Underground 7...
Each one will showcase a sound of the era, and you can distinctively see how far the genre has come, and how different the 90s Happy Hardcore sounds compared to 2000s-present. Is it still Happy Hardcore? Gammer says so.
Vladel
Yeah but gammer is wrong
Guest
yeah, this is as happy as hardcore gets
those are clubland dresscode nights, or just interludes for the pimped cars no dress code nights
Guest
danielseven
quote:Originally posted by Vladel:
Yeah but gammer is wrong
So, does actual House music have to sound like it's 90s for be still called "House" music, or it needs a new term?
Even Happy Hardcore has it's own evolution, you know.
Anyway, for me it's right to call this music Happy Hardcore. If a production like Toytown, or Diss Reaction has got a different sound than, let's say, "Free From Form" or even "Look Back", they still have got something in common: the euphoric and "rave" vibes.
And then, "UK Hardcore" doesn't really sound global. And this scene needs to be recognized as global.
DJ SMALOUM
Vladel
quote:Originally posted by danielseven:
quote:Originally posted by Vladel:
Yeah but gammer is wrong
So, does actual House music have to sound like it's 90s for be still called "House" music, or it needs a new term?
Even Happy Hardcore has it's own evolution, you know.
Anyway, for me it's right to call this music Happy Hardcore. If a production like Toytown, or Diss Reaction has got a different sound than, let's say, "Free From Form" or even "Look Back", they still have got something in common: the euphoric and "rave" vibes.
And then, "UK Hardcore" doesn't really sound global. And this scene needs to be recognized as global.
I thought house already did because i haven't exactly heard the term floating around lately. Don't ask me what they call it now because i don't really know, what i do know is that shit that gammer makes at the moment is not and never will be happy hardcore.
Triquatra
House music was rebranded last year as Genre#5468 to help with confusion. Supreme court made a judgement and made it official last I heard.
rafferty
quote:Originally posted by Samination:
The unlicensed bootlegs the dutch might have are probably outshined by the likes of Kaos and Vinylgroover :P
After dj Paul ripped off Luna C & Jimmy J with his own unlicensed version of 6 days. The UK scene must have been thinking, ok I guess anything goes if the Europeans want to be like that :)
-CRASH-
I grew up in Northern Ireland, so I'm born and bred on happy hardcore as well as UK Hardcore.
It was always the same genre, just a moving era and different approach and attitude. Like always, the genre keeps blending in with the trends and fads, updating and improving.
The fact that the new attitude was more serious, commercial, trance influenced cut a massive divide in the 'style' from old and new. Now, in 2016.... the genre is beyond the UK and is very International. In Finland, we don't make UK hardcore..... it's certainly stupid to start Finnish Hardcore.... it sounds like a new genre, it sounds like gabber or something.... So the term Happy Hardcore is back, and it's cool again, trending and awesome.
Samination
quote:Originally posted by -CRASH-:
I grew up in Northern Ireland, so I'm born and bred on happy hardcore as well as UK Hardcore.
It was always the same genre, just a moving era and different approach and attitude. Like always, the genre keeps blending in with the trends and fads, updating and improving.
The fact that the new attitude was more serious, commercial, trance influenced cut a massive divide in the 'style' from old and new. Now, in 2016.... the genre is beyond the UK and is very International. In Finland, we don't make UK hardcore..... it's certainly stupid to start Finnish Hardcore.... it sounds like a new genre, it sounds like gabber or something.... So the term Happy Hardcore is back, and it's cool again, trending and awesome.
wait. there's Hardcore in finland? other than freform that is :P
Jacco
Heard lots of people in California calling it HappyCore. Been talking to a raver couple in London and mentioned UK Hardcore. She looked at me like before he said "he means our hardcore". Many of my friends in Germany just call it "Happy". I quite like the traditional 90/00's distinction between Happy Hardcore and UK Hardcore but again the scene has changed massively and maybe with all the worldwide outreach and marketing faff going on it is time for yet another name. I think the name "hardcore" alone makes the music less accessible to a wider audience (whether thats a good thing or not I'm gonna leave up to you). I feel like someone should coin a new name that gets used everywhere, something that makes sense.
Claxton
The more I think about it, the more I just think it's better to call it 'Happy Hardcore'.
Cyrax
I think they just dropped the Happy bit because it wasn't cool any more, now it's cool again it's been brought back, I definitely think it needs some sort of change because Hardcore is produced on a global level much more now,
djDMS
quote:Originally posted by Claxton:
The more I think about it, the more I just think it's better to call it 'Happy Hardcore'.
I won't be, even if everybody else does.
My problem with it (apart from historic reasons of course), is that it'll lead to even more genre separation instead of bringing the scene together.
It'll please the purist Freeform bunch at least, they'll get their separate identify back now.
Captain Triceps
I hated the term 'happy hardcore' in the 90s, and only started using it later to refer to that period of the music. If everyone starts calling the new stuff happy hardcore then fair enough, I don't personally agree with it though, it's no longer happy hardcore, hasn't been for a long time and it seemed the only people who were calling it that now (in this country at least) aren't into the music - they just remember the name.
Just seems a bit like if reggae suddenly started referring to itself as ska, or drum and bass deciding the it should be called jungle.
Claxton
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:Originally posted by Claxton:
The more I think about it, the more I just think it's better to call it 'Happy Hardcore'.
I won't be, even if everybody else does.
My problem with it (apart from historic reasons of course), is that it'll lead to even more genre separation instead of bringing the scene together.
It'll please the purist Freeform bunch at least, they'll get their separate identify back now.
Well that was my initial thought. Stuff like Powerstomp and Marc Smith's music clearly isn't 'Happy'. But what does it matter? It can just come under one umbrella can't it?
UK Hardcore is pretty limiting tbh.
djDMS
Yes, I call it Hardcore funnily enough
Claxton
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
Yes, I call it Hardcore funnily enough
But then the European scene obviously coins that term. Plus, it's a bigger scene so they have baggsy really.
Samination
Well, of a anything out now, Powerstomp could be considered Happy Hardcore. HU is just to breakbeaty :P
djDMS
quote:Originally posted by Claxton:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
Yes, I call it Hardcore funnily enough
But then the European scene obviously coins that term. Plus, it's a bigger scene so they have baggsy really.
The European scene can suck my plums! Doesn't make any difference to what I think. I, you and plenty of others know the difference so it isn't much of an issue.
There isn't a term that covers all, so shall we go for Fast Dance Music?
FDM is the future!
ViolonC
Genre Names don't always (have to) make sense.
The UK Hardcore came up when Trance influences took over and the music became more melancholic due to it while the dutch Hardcore was very aggressive and clearly something else. The genre always retained it's take to not be too serious while being very versatile. Bringing the Happy back (and dropping the UK) gives reference to the melancholia taking the backseat over the last years, it becoming very international and also no similar genre with the dutch anymore. It shows that there are +20 Years of History to come from and finally it's already a brand/name and not something out of the blue.
Claxton
Happy Hardcore Googles much better than Hardcore
djDMS
But makes questionable searches a lot harder to explain to the missus.
Samination
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:Originally posted by Claxton:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
Yes, I call it Hardcore funnily enough
But then the European scene obviously coins that term. Plus, it's a bigger scene so they have baggsy really.
The European scene can suck my plums! Doesn't make any difference to what I think. I, you and plenty of others know the difference so it isn't much of an issue.
There isn't a term that covers all, so shall we go for Fast Dance Music?
FDM is the future!
Lets trend it on Twitter, maybe s3rl can be happy :P
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before he said "he means our hardcore". Many of my friends in Germany just call it "Happy". I quite like the traditional 90/00's distinction between Happy Hardcore and UK Hardcore but again the scene has changed massively and maybe with all the worldwide outreach and marketing faff going on it is time for yet another name. I think the name "hardcore" alone makes the music less accessible to a wider audience (whether thats a good thing or not I'm gonna leave up to you). I feel like someone should coin a new name that gets used everywhere, something that makes sense.