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makingmusic
Average Member
United Kingdom
230 posts
Joined: Aug, 2006
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 Posted - 2007/08/16 : 21:48:57
there's something i want to bring to the forum for discussion. it involves collabs that starts off in good faith and then go sour through no fault of the innocent parties
the scenario:
one party comes too a top-line writer with their very good instru track. they ask them to write a 'titled' top-line melody/lyric to it.
they then involve an established producer/engineer to produce the VOX
they then invite a hardcore producer in, to complete the 4-way split collab on his 'mix'
the song is included on a popular hardcore comp and everyone is happy.
the hardcore producer 'out of the blue' gets a label associate to e-mail to say everyone else is not entitled to 'production/artist royalties', only songwriting royalties!!
on top of that the first and second party don't get included in the writing credits on the sleeve, to which they're entitled.
bare in mind in the beginning the 'hardcore producer' was overwhelmed they were getting included in the 'writing' royalty as well as the 'production' royalty (to keep things logistically neat). even though they supplied the finished hardcore mix only (they were that impressed with the instru/top-line lyric idea). everything amicable.
where did the 'produced 'VOX' come from?
where did the original 'produced' instru track - from which the hardcore track followed same chord progression/ideas - come from?
final injustice, in my opinion. on the comp, 2 tracks after track in question, a near identical 'mix' from the hardcore producer, with a different top-line melody/lyric. not quite plagirising but "come on"!!
is someone over-reacting? if so tell me and i'ts forgotten. i know the forum get a lot of 'views' in regard to 'replies', but i think it's an important issue. 'ALL' involved in collabs should beware!
it seems that there's TWO WORLDS!! and HARDCORE REUNITED is boss comp!! 
Best to you all!!
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silver
Admin
Japan
12,579 posts
Joined: Feb, 2001
894 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2007/08/22 : 05:31:35
The business side of hardcore music is ugly, I suggest you make sure with the artists directly on the phone and email and not the middle men of any deal.
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Zonk
Starting Member
United Kingdom
5 posts
Joined: Sep, 2005
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Posted - 2007/08/22 : 15:49:18
Welcome to the music business !
Weather you work in "good faith" or not GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING - it saves you crying over spilt milk later on.
You are entitled to your writers publishing so thats ok - if someone else produced the WAV of the vocal - then they are the producer not you - however you do own the copywrite and the RECORDING not them - this is therefore negotiable. If someone else sang the top line - then the writer wont get the artist royalty - the vocalist would. The inital production and the finished production is there fore again negotiable.
All of this should have been put in writing before the track was handed over for production.
Anybody who is anybody in the music scene has been through this kind of bollocks at some stage - its part of the process and its shit - but you are not alone..... you are gonna have to put it down to experience and learn from it.
As a top line writer - surely you should be writing directly with the producer/engineer alone and not involving so many people ? There are too many people involved in this song - 4 splits - seems like a lot to me..... you should be looking at 50/50.
It seems to me that this may have happend because party 1 and 2 had stars in their eyes and were that excited that their song was being put on a release / compilation album, that they trusted party 3 and 4, and didnt think to get everything in an agreement before hand - WE HAVE ALL BEEN THERE and to be honest- there is very little you can do about it - except put it down to experience and learn from it...................
To not be credited for your work is theft and that is the shittest thing .........labels dont seem to ever get things right when the credits come out - have you registered your split with MCPS or your publisher ??? please dont tell me you signed publishing to the 3rd and 4th party ?????????????????????
As far as plagerism is concerend - this is dance music you are talking about......
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makingmusic
Average Member
United Kingdom
230 posts
Joined: Aug, 2006
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Posted - 2007/08/22 : 19:23:22
chrz for replies. the 'try it on' was never gonna work, as all things were legally in place. never had this prob before. it's more the fact that some people will try it on!!! it seems miracuously it was a 'misunderstanding' (MMMmn). still pissed about the 'credits' ommision. it's not rocket science, just plain old 'i'm alright jack' 
someone is correct tho', don't shake on a deal, even with your dear old toothless gran. get it in blood!!!!!!!!!
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silver
Admin
Japan
12,579 posts
Joined: Feb, 2001
894 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2007/08/23 : 08:21:11
I should point out, that usually unless another deal is made a songwriter gets only the publishing and the producer and the singer split the artist royality or the producer pays for a studio session with the vocalist and pays them a once off fee.
So unless you have something that says otherwise on paper producers will assume the above.
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makingmusic
Average Member
United Kingdom
230 posts
Joined: Aug, 2006
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Posted - 2007/08/23 : 12:28:13
quote:
Originally posted by silver:
I should point out, that usually unless another deal is made a songwriter gets only the publishing and the producer and the singer split the artist royality or the producer pays for a studio session with the vocalist and pays them a once off fee.
So unless you have something that says otherwise on paper producers will assume the above.
yeah, there's something that says otherwise, chrz. it's a point to remember, if you contribute financially too studio time for your co-writes, you are entitled to production royalty as well as writers. i've heard the argument that if you write a song equally, you should be entitled to production as well, without contributing financially, as you produced the initial idea that everyone else benefits from?? some are willing to share all equally, some aren't. i've got my own personal opinions and ethics. you have to decide what you're willing to accept, right or wrong.
you have to be flexible, as there is no black and white. it may state 'rights' in things you read, but, sometimes you have to except the 'grey' area and what's on offer to get a result. it's the pecking order i feel. when you gain 'respect' etc you're bargaining power increases.
it's dog eat dog all the way!!
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djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2007/08/23 : 13:08:47
Go on then, spill the beans!
__________________________________
Taking my time to perfect the beat
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deejaybee
Average Member
United Kingdom
193 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
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Posted - 2007/08/23 : 17:06:47
I dont usually get involved with stuff like this that doesnt concern me in the slightest but Paul, seriously man.. be careful what you write on these forums.. say the wrong thing and you will end up burning bridges and pissing people off... if someone has tried to take advantage, take note and dont work with them again.
Its seen as pretty unprofessional coming on a web forum and airing your laundry, especially in hardcore... we all go through times when people piss us off and we wanna air our views, but we also all have to bite our tongues and be quiet.
Its between you and whoever it is you have a problem with.
On anougher note... I dont belive becuase someone contributes financially for production that it entitles em to production royalties... Ive been absolutely screwed in the past on almost every tune ive ever done, not once has anyone contributed to the production, I engineered every one myself from scratch... yet I share at least 50% of all royalties with the other parties.
DeejayBee
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Hardcore, Its Everything That I Stand For.
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makingmusic
Average Member
United Kingdom
230 posts
Joined: Aug, 2006
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Posted - 2007/08/23 : 18:16:02
quote:
Originally posted by deejaybee:
I dont usually get involved with stuff like this that doesnt concern me in the slightest but Paul, seriously man.. be careful what you write on these forums.. say the wrong thing and you will end up burning bridges and pissing people off... if someone has tried to take advantage, take note and dont work with them again.
Its seen as pretty unprofessional coming on a web forum and airing your laundry, especially in hardcore... we all go through times when people piss us off and we wanna air our views, but we also all have to bite our tongues and be quiet.
Its between you and whoever it is you have a problem with.
On anougher note... I dont belive becuase someone contributes financially for production that it entitles em to production royalties... Ive been absolutely screwed in the past on almost every tune ive ever done, not once has anyone contributed to the production, I engineered every one myself from scratch... yet I share at least 50% of all royalties with the other parties.
DeejayBee
your opinion is welcome bee. but it is more about letting people know the pitfalls and not airing laundry. forums are a good source of education. i don't mind your comments tho' mate. as with you, people all have issues.
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