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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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 Posted - 2010/09/07 : 16:33:25
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
I always thought that the DJ thing was common knowledge that while YES it's technically illegal it's accepted all across the board that DJs mixing your records and playing them in sets is good advertising for the label.
If I am brutally honest for a moment:
This thread just seems like an opportunity for filesharers to attempt to justify their filesharing activities with pointless comparisons and roundabout logic that does not hold up in the real world in the slightest.
I don't know if this is an effort to clear their concience of the filesharing they do or if they are trying to obscure the issue to such an extent that they can try to make the act more acceptable but simply in the end the old point still stands: If you like it, buy it. What better way to support the musician?
oh where have we heard this from before? oh everywhere :P
I do understand the statement that Artists should get paid for their works. Im not denying it. But I also want to buy music in a way that supports an artists. I can't do that when it comes to buying 2nd hand vinyls if I want to buy an old track that hasn't been released on a re-accuring CD or digitally sold file. The only thing that happens is that someone might get more money from the sale, and my collection of music would be "clean". No one likes 2nd hand sales. Definitely not the multimedia businesses, as they wont see another nickel for the sale. In the end, that hurts the artists aswell (unless they sold their own backcat 2nd hand)
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2010/09/07 16:35:42 |
NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2010/09/07 : 18:27:32
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
I always thought that the DJ thing was common knowledge that while YES it's technically illegal it's accepted all across the board that DJs mixing your records and playing them in sets is good advertising for the label.
If I am brutally honest for a moment:
This thread just seems like an opportunity for filesharers to attempt to justify their filesharing activities with pointless comparisons and roundabout logic that does not hold up in the real world in the slightest.
I don't know if this is an effort to clear their concience of the filesharing they do or if they are trying to obscure the issue to such an extent that they can try to make the act more acceptable but simply in the end the old point still stands: If you like it, buy it. What better way to support the musician?
oh where have we heard this from before? oh everywhere :P
I do understand the statement that Artists should get paid for their works. Im not denying it. But I also want to buy music in a way that supports an artists. I can't do that when it comes to buying 2nd hand vinyls if I want to buy an old track that hasn't been released on a re-accuring CD or digitally sold file. The only thing that happens is that someone might get more money from the sale, and my collection of music would be "clean". No one likes 2nd hand sales. Definitely not the multimedia businesses, as they wont see another nickel for the sale. In the end, that hurts the artists aswell (unless they sold their own backcat 2nd hand)
Vinyls are a bit different though, because unless they were physically stolen (unlikely) each and every one of them floating around has been paid for as opposed to one person paying £1.50 for a track and ctrl+c/ctrl+v'ing it around the world.
If you want old tracks, buy them on vinyl. What's wrong with second hand? As long as the condition is fine there's no problems, would you really expect to get a new vinyl of toy town?? Heck IMO has a bunch of mp3s that are basically professionally ripped vinyl.
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scottyd2k9
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
749 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2010/09/07 : 22:33:19
quote:
Originally posted by choonland:
say you go to your local public library and read a complete book, and then return home very happy for all the information you gained, and you didn't spend absolutely any money
Does that make you a criminal becuase you didn't buy the book?
So if you can read this book for free in your library, what difference does it make if you read it in your library of if you download it?
could it be the same for music?
I do believe artists of all kinds must be paid and rewarded for they work, but I also believe that all knowledge and cultural information (music included) should be available to anyone and everywhere in the world.
discuss
Ok hand me over some tunes, you said it's ok to fileshare, lol.
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choonland
Advanced Member
Colombia
1,100 posts
Joined: Dec, 2007
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 02:18:22
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
stealing and illegally copying is not the same.
agreed
piracy is to steal or rip something and then sell it, most of the times at a lower price
say someone photocopy a book or burn some dvd movies and then
sell the copies in the streets.. THAT is piracy, because you are earning money without paying to the copyrigth owners.
file sharing on the other hand its simply that: file sharing
artists think that if file sharing was completely vanished from the world their sales would increase like crazy, but I don't think that would be the case, best case scenario they would sale the same, and would have less fans...
imo
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choonland
Advanced Member
Colombia
1,100 posts
Joined: Dec, 2007
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 02:33:45
quote:
Originally posted by Yoko:
Just wait till we have cyber-brains, so it will technically be in our memory (as per your example about the book).
yes thats a really cool argument man!
we could memorize a tune and reproduce it in our minds all the times we wanted, with perfect sound quality!
actually, you probably don't need a cyber-brain: what about people with photographic memory? then can play and "see" again anything they have seen before without paying royalties!!!....
so there must me also people with "sonic memory" or something
quote:
Originally posted by Yoko:
So say I have a boom box and I'm playing it live out in public walking down the street like they did in the 90's. Do I have to pay again after I bought the CD? Is that no different than say me streaming a radio station from my bedroom with CD's that I have bought legally?
and if we take that to the extreme:
what if I'm walking down the street whistling a melody of a song,
technically thats a reproduction of the song, an "unauthorized remix or cover" if you will
therefore I have to pay too 
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Edited by - choonland on 2010/09/08 02:43:40 |
H3RO
Junior Member
United States
145 posts
Joined: Jun, 2010
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 02:43:30
piracy noun \ˈp-rə-splural piracies
Definition of PIRACY
1: an act of robbery on the high seas; also : an act resembling such robbery
2: robbery on the high seas
3a : **the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright**
No where in the defintion, which I got from Webster's website, does it mention selling anything thing. It says use. And I'd be willing to bet if one was taken to court for pirating music, listening to the illegally downloaded track would be a sufficient use. While I was wrong to say it was theft, it's still illegal.
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Lilley
Advanced Member
Australia
3,740 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 08:27:51
Please, continue, you were saying something about best intentions. What's the matter? Oh, you were finished! Well, allow me to retort.
Time to go n00b hunting...
quote:
Originally posted by choonland:
say you go to your local public library and read a complete book, and then return home very happy for all the information you gained, and you didn't spend absolutely any money
Does that make you a criminal becuase you didn't buy the book?
No, because the local/state/federal council/government has already payed for the copyright of having it publicly available.
quote:
So if you can read this book for free in your library, what difference does it make if you read it in your library of if you download it?
one's copyright has been purchased and is legal the other's hasn't and isn't.
quote:
could it be the same for music?
Yes, I can go to my local library and borrow a cd from there.
quote:
I do believe artists of all kinds must be paid and rewarded for they work, but I also believe that all knowledge and cultural information (music included) should be available to anyone and everywhere in the world.
Yeh sure, for the right price. Nothing's free in this world mate. That's the issue with socialists, they just don't get that.
quote:
discuss
done.
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Edited by - Lilley on 2010/09/08 08:54:13 |
Lilley
Advanced Member
Australia
3,740 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 08:53:42
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
stealing and illegally copying is not the same.
I notice you didn't use the term file sharing. Purposefully or just the way it came out? Either way, please explain the difference between stealing and illegal copying for me. I'll kick us off:
"In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent." - wikipedia
Illegal copying: "Taking another person's copyright without that person's freely-given consent." - Adam Lilley.
quote:
Originally posted by choonland:
agreed
piracy is to steal or rip something and then sell it, most of the times at a lower price
say someone photocopy a book or burn some dvd movies and then
sell the copies in the streets.. THAT is piracy, because you are earning money without paying to the copyrigth owners.
nup, you're wrong. From wikipedia: Piracy is a war-like act committed by private parties (not affiliated with any government) that engage in acts of robbery and/or criminal violence at sea.. Nothing about selling in there, champ.
quote:
artists think that if file sharing was completely vanished from the world their sales would increase like crazy, but I don't think that would be the case, best case scenario they would sale the same, and would have less fans...
imo
Well luckily for everyone else, we are not goverened by your opinion, because once again you're wrong. I can only assume that you are about 16 or so, and don't know what a cd or tape or vinyl is. Believe it or not, people back then also enjoyed listening to music, and were willing to pay for it as well. And given that, one could easily argue they were more appreciative of music than you are because they could put their money where their mouth was.
quote:
Originally posted by choonland:
we could memorize a tune and reproduce it in our minds all the times we wanted, with perfect sound quality!
I can do that. For a whole album. Several. Of course it's not perfect sound quality because you can't hear it or remember it perfectly, but it's damn well good enough. Quite useful in getting oneself through detention. Let's just say I've never had an issue with keeping myself entertained.
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Edited by - Lilley on 2010/09/08 08:55:32 |
Lilley
Advanced Member
Australia
3,740 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 08:56:59
anything else?
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 13:38:18
I see you like to use Wiki's Lilley?. Are you sure the information on these pages are 100% correct?
quote:
Lilley
quote:
choonland?
artists think that if file sharing was completely vanished from the world their sales would increase like crazy, but I don't think that would be the case, best case scenario they would sale the same, and would have less fans...
imo
Well luckily for everyone else, we are not goverened by your opinion, because once again you're wrong. I can only assume that you are about 16 or so, and don't know what a cd or tape or vinyl is. Believe it or not, people back then also enjoyed listening to music, and were willing to pay for it as well. And given that, one could easily argue they were more appreciative of music than you are because they could put their money where their mouth was.
Dont you forget something? ye the people or copied their friends tape or CD's. Do you actually think they first came about when filesharing started to get noticed but the big wigs?
quote:
Lilley
quote:
Me
stealing and illegally copying is not the same.
I notice you didn't use the term file sharing. Purposefully or just the way it came out? Either way, please explain the difference between stealing and illegal copying for me. I'll kick us off:
"In criminal law, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent." - wikipedia
Illegal copying: "Taking another person's copyright without that person's freely-given consent." - Adam Lilley.
I did not use the word filesharing as it does not ONLY include illegal sharing. I'm currently filesharing both ubuntu and kubuntu. Does that make me a illegal uploader?
About the copyright comment. I don't take another one's copyright (taking would mean that I own it), but I will say that it's abusing the artist's copyright.
offtopic btw, I might have been thinking of Lilly Allan, but I thought you where a girl/lady/female :P
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Lilley
Advanced Member
Australia
3,740 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 14:21:19
Oh excellent, proper debate. this I like.
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
I see you like to use Wiki's Lilley?. Are you sure the information on these pages are 100% correct?
I'm satisfied with their control policy, yes. I could have gone for more authoritative sources, but it wasn't worth my time searching.
quote:
Dont you forget something? ye the people or copied their friends tape or CD's. Do you actually think they first came about when filesharing started to get noticed but the big wigs?
No I didnt forget that, just quite certain that it was not even in the same game, let alone ballpark, as illegal sharing today. I am just as certain that if a proper study was done of music purchase that included all the variables applicable, much more music was purchased per person for the total amount of music owned (both legal and illegal) than would be today (ie, the percentage of legitimately owned music was higher).
quote:
I did not use the word filesharing as it does not ONLY include illegal sharing. I'm currently filesharing both ubuntu and kubuntu. Does that make me a illegal uploader?
Yep, fair enough I'll pay that. You can answer your own question better than I can, are you doing it illegally? If so then yes.
quote:
About the copyright comment. I don't take another one's copyright (taking would mean that I own it), but I will say that it's abusing the artist's copyright.
If you take a computer/car/material possession and by take I mean steal, do you own it? No, it's stolen good in your possession and you have no legal right to it. Same difference.
quote:
offtopic btw, I might have been thinking of Lilly Allan, but I thought you where a girl/lady/female :P
yeh that happens a bit :P
I love a solid bit of educated argument mate, bring it.
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Edited by - Lilley on 2010/09/08 14:22:20 |
Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
12,837 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 15:58:06
Lilley is right, no more needs to be said on the matter. Like i said before, you may be of the opinion that it is ok, or can justify it in some way to yourself, but that doesn't change the law on it. The only people trying to justify it are those that are breaking the law, so obviously you are going to try and tell yourself and other that it's ok.
I have downloaded songs, so has everyone in this topic and in fact on the website, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it is in some way ethical.
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Edited by - Hard2Get on 2010/09/08 16:01:26 |
acidfluxxbass
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
5,000 posts
Joined: Apr, 2008
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 19:20:58
Do artists or producers get royalties from HTID3 where they've used a load of tracks remixes and bootlegs?
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 19:50:04
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
Oh excellent, proper debate. this I like.
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
I see you like to use Wiki's Lilley?. Are you sure the information on these pages are 100% correct?
I'm satisfied with their control policy, yes. I could have gone for more authoritative sources, but it wasn't worth my time searching.
quote:
Dont you forget something? ye the people or copied their friends tape or CD's. Do you actually think they first came about when filesharing started to get noticed but the big wigs?
No I didnt forget that, just quite certain that it was not even in the same game, let alone ballpark, as illegal sharing today. I am just as certain that if a proper study was done of music purchase that included all the variables applicable, much more music was purchased per person for the total amount of music owned (both legal and illegal) than would be today (ie, the percentage of legitimately owned music was higher).
quote:
I did not use the word filesharing as it does not ONLY include illegal sharing. I'm currently filesharing both ubuntu and kubuntu. Does that make me a illegal uploader?
Yep, fair enough I'll pay that. You can answer your own question better than I can, are you doing it illegally? If so then yes.
quote:
About the copyright comment. I don't take another one's copyright (taking would mean that I own it), but I will say that it's abusing the artist's copyright.
If you take a computer/car/material possession and by take I mean steal, do you own it? No, it's stolen good in your possession and you have no legal right to it. Same difference.
quote:
offtopic btw, I might have been thinking of Lilly Allan, but I thought you where a girl/lady/female :P
yeh that happens a bit :P
I love a solid bit of educated argument mate, bring it.
If you want educated arguments, I aint the one to bring 'em :P
Just as you source Wiki, I use *******freak.
And I slipped my tongue (or fingers?) about owning the copyright. Possession is the word I should have used to word it better
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2010/09/08 : 19:55:20
quote:
Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
Do artists or producers get royalties from HTID3 where they've used a load of tracks remixes and bootlegs?
considering AATW is releasing it, I don't think it would have gotten far if it hadn't
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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