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CandyAss
Senior Member
United States
471 posts
Joined: Jul, 2001
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 Posted - 2002/12/09 : 11:15:24
quote:
Originally posted by Soren:
No offense to all the DJ's that think they are pushing some kind of envelope, but you aren't. Unless you're a Hip-Hop DJ that's juggling 2 records and scratching a 3rd you aren't doing anything that can't be learned in less than a week.
Good point, but what about those DJs that can do that? I think that Q-Bert and Mixmaster Mike would be considered musicians by even the most convservative music critics standards. Pretty much any DMC contestants and such are musicians in my book.
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CandyAss
Senior Member
United States
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Posted - 2002/12/09 : 11:16:33
quote:
Originally posted by CandyAss:
quote:
Originally posted by Soren:
No offense to all the DJ's that think they are pushing some kind of envelope, but you aren't. Unless you're a Hip-Hop DJ that's juggling 2 records and scratching a 3rd you aren't doing anything that can't be learned in less than a week.
Good point, but what about those DJs that can do that? I think that Q-Bert and Mixmaster Mike would be considered musicians by even the most convservative music critics standards. Pretty much any DMC contestant and such are musicians in my book.
CandyAss
Drew
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Drew
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strychnine
Advanced Member
Australia
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Posted - 2002/12/09 : 15:04:58
Soren: I don't want to get into another quote-war, so I'll keep it short this time 
(1) "Unless the DJ produced the tracks that they are spinning then they didn't make the music and hence they aren't musicians." Therefore, pianists are not musicians - is this what you're saying?
Alternate perspective: piecing different sounds together into a new composition ==> making music ==> being a musician.
(2) Quoting myself: "I agree with everyone who's said that the beatmatching human-jukebox style of DJ does not fall in the category of 'musician'". Quoteth you: "Taking 2 pieces of music that other people made and combining them with a single switch is not being a musician." Are we not saying the same thing?
"If you are talking about beat juggling and stuff then I agree it's amazing." I also agree with this point. Are you just twisting my words again? 
(3) "This is like saying if a producer blatantly steals a track and then adds an Acid line over it he is now a master musician cause he added something to the track. " <== Who said anything about being a "master musician"? The issue is whether they're musicians, not how good they are thereas. Hell, I don't think much of the triangle as a musical instrument, but trianglists are still musicians IMO.
...
Hmmm this reply wasn't that short. Oh well.
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Edited by - strychnine on 2002/12/09 16:55:27 |
CandyAss
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Posted - 2002/12/09 : 17:02:46
How the hell did I end up quoting myself while trying to edit my post? Hehe.
Oh well.
I don't think I care if DJs are musicians or not anymore :-p
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strychnine
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Australia
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Posted - 2002/12/09 : 17:14:12
^^ LOL that seems to happen when me and Soren get involved in a thread - everyone else stops giving a shit 
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Soren
Senior Member
United States
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Posted - 2002/12/10 : 06:31:48
quote:
I think that Q-Bert and Mixmaster Mike would be considered musicians by even the most convservative music critics standards.
As I said, good DJ's are artists not musicians. Being a musician involves playing notes and chords on an instrument, which DJ's clearly don't do. Now I think you could stretch that to say that producers are musicians cause they program notes and chords, but there's no way a DJ is a musician. Great artist? Sure. Performers? OK. Musicians? No.
Strychnine:
quote:
Therefore, pianists are not musicians - is this what you're saying?
No i'm saying you aren't a musician unless you are playing notes and/or chords. Hence a pianist is a musician, and even a producer, but definitely not a DJ. There's nothing musical involved in pushing a crossfader from left to right and then back again once every 5 mins.
quote:
Alternate perspective: piecing different sounds together into a new composition ==> making music ==> being a musician.
Again, so if anyone takes ANY sound and puts another sound over it in a non musical fasion (ie: no notes, chords, arrangement involved) then they are a musician? If you believe that then in your mind a DJ is a musician, but I'd highly disagree.
Your quote #2: "Are we not saying the same thing?" <-- In that quote yes.
quote:
Are you just twisting my words again?
No, but in quote 1 you clearly twisted mine :D And other than the time that I stated I was twisting your words and made it clear I was joking I don't think I ever have.
quote:
Who said anything about being a "master musician"? The issue is whether they're musicians, not how good they are thereas.
I appologize, I was trying to emphasize how ridiculous it was to call DJ's musicians. And if you can call a DJ a musician I think it's fair to call a hack producer that steals material a master musician because quite frankly I think it takes more talent than pushin a crossfader and turning a Low EQ. Here:
This is like saying if a producer blatantly steals a track and then adds an Acid line over it he is now a musician cause he added something to the track. Total BS.
Better? : )
PS: i just looked up the proper term for combining 2 pieces of work that other people have done and then claiming it's something original that you have done. It's called plagiarism.
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Edited by - Soren on 2002/12/10 09:55:41 |
atomicb
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2002/12/10 : 10:26:59
'i just looked up the proper term for combining 2 pieces of work that other people have done and then claiming it's something original that you have done. It's called plagiarism.'
ahh what would GCSE / A level coursework be without it? :D
And hmmm.. well I think I'm one of the lucky ones when it comes to being able to dj.. when I get my new decks I'll know for sure - i can dj nice on the once I have but they are literally falling apart now!
But yeah I was worried it would take me forever to get good and it only took a few weeks - only thing that stops me hitting clubs is big time nerves I have :)
to DJ is not to be musicain, but DJ's are special when they pick a good selection of tunes :)
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Edited by - atomicb on 2002/12/10 10:33:52 |
strychnine
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Posted - 2002/12/10 : 13:04:48
quote:
Originally posted by Soren:
Again, so if anyone takes ANY sound and puts another sound over it in a non musical fasion (ie: no notes, chords, arrangement involved) then they are a musician? If you believe that then in your mind a DJ is a musician, but I'd highly disagree.
Then disagree all you want. My definition of musicianship is a very broad one that includes a lot of activity in the realm of music-manipulation, without the subjective value judgments that you seem to uphold. If there's one thing my dear grandmother taught me it was that I should have a very open mind when dealing with artistic issues.
PS ... just as a bit of background, I am not a DJ, nor do I want to be one. I am, however, a pianist, and I also dabble a bit with the ol' acoustic guitar.
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Soren
Senior Member
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Posted - 2002/12/11 : 10:18:29
quote:
My definition of musicianship is a very broad one that includes a lot of activity in the realm of music-manipulation, without the subjective value judgments that you seem to uphold. If there's one thing my dear grandmother taught me it was that I should have a very open mind when dealing with artistic issues.
This has nothing to do with keeping an open mind. And it has nothing to do with any subjective or objective value judgments. It's a very simple terminology issue. Is a skateboarder a musician becuase he is skilled at an activity that makes a bunch of successive clacking noises?
Musican: A composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : Instrumentalist.
Well a DJ doesn't compose or conduct, rule those 2 out. And I don't think you can call a turntable an instrument because an instrument is a device used to produce music which a turntable clearly doesn't do. So that leaves us with "a performer of music". Is a DJ this? Lets break it down:
Perform: To adhere to the terms of.
Music: The science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity.
Well a DJ clearly doesn't adhere to ordering tones or sounds in succession although they can adjust the "tempo" of an arrangement with a little slider and can maintain unity by not fecking up the crossfade. But there is no note or tone performance involved so therefore a DJ is not a musician. And that's a fact. If there's one thing my dear grandmother taught me it's stick to the facts and keep it simple. Now you can try to redefine the english language all you want to fit the subjective value judgments that you seem to uphold but I'll still disagree.
PS: Maybe you should try DJ'ing before you try and pass judgment on what it is and what it isn't. There's no way you call someone that does an activity that's so simple and non musical as DJ'ing a musician. Your argument is the same as me saying that because someone can use a thermometer they are a scientist when I've never used a thermometer before and don't know what a scientist is....
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Edited by - Soren on 2002/12/11 10:32:07 |
strychnine
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Posted - 2002/12/11 : 11:38:55
^^ nice try. I have tried DJ'ing, and have put up some semi-respectable performances. Sure, it isn't the same as tinkling the keys on a piano, of strumming a guitar, but IMO a good DJ is still a musician.
A skateboarder? No - the primary purpose of his skateboarding is not to make that clacking sound. If it were, then I'd probably consider it.
"ordering ... sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity."
Going by this definition, a DJ, arranging the tracks in succession (ordering), in combination (mixing) and in temporal relationships (cuing) to produce a unified and continuous set, is a musician. It didn't require *that* much twisting now, did it?
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junglist_angel
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Posted - 2002/12/11 : 11:57:55
well... if the DJ is just going from one track to the next without putting any feeling into it, then no... not a musician.
But if he is mixing the shit with emotion and skills, then wouldn't you call that a musician?
there's much more to mixing than just placing in a track one after the other. Many more skills to be learned 
have you ever watched a entier turntableism show? hip hop styleee....
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gemini
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Posted - 2002/12/11 : 14:24:04
I am a DJ, not pro but i bin doin it a fair few years and i am also a producer. i have to say, dj's really arnt musicians...they need to have alot of knowledge to be a 'good' dj. like knowin when to play what tunes and stuff. especially wid new style happy >its hard to mix without bluring two different riffs or bass lines together which usually sounds shit.. and it takes more than a week to do mix well! .... but it really wouldnt be the same wivout a dj and the top dj's around really do hav a ****in lot of skill and not anybody can do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! also generally top dj's r producers
(´¸.·*´¯`*·»2ºº3 Tom B
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kid cid
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Posted - 2002/12/12 : 06:51:37
quote:
Originally posted by strychnine:
Going by this definition, a DJ, arranging the tracks in succession (ordering), in combination (mixing) and in temporal relationships (cuing) to produce a unified and continuous set, is a musician.
Ahh...I remember back when we had this argument in my forum.
It's quite simple. DJ's aren't musicians. Some of them come close...like QBert for instance...because he mutiliates tracks beyond all recognition, and makes something very different sounding....but if you took away from him the music that OTHER PEOPLE MADE - then what would he do? Well....QBERT happens to be talented enough he could probably make a track scratching on a piece of cardboard...that's why I would say *he* is probably a musician.
However, DJ's like that are few and far between.
So overall, Dj's are not musicians. They play other peoples music. If they were musicians, they wouldn't have to do that. Certainly, some DJ's produce their own tracks...and in that case, *he himself* is a musician.
Whenever you find yourself thinking "wow - dj's are amazing...they are such good musicians" just think to yourself..."Wait - how good would he be without records?" If Dj's could actually "create" music, they wouldn't really need other peoples records would they? They could just get up there and "create" stuff.
On my forum, many people made the claim "so a guitarist that covers someone elses song isn't a musician?" But they fail to see the point. To make that argument it would be like a guitarist standing there, pushing play on a tape deck with the song pre-recorded, and then saying he "played" it. True - he did play the tape. And Dj's "play" records...but that is a different kind of "playing" than someone who uses their hands to pluck many notes in a row...
Anyway...if you actually play a real instrument, and think DJ's are musicians...you aren't giving yourself enough credit. If you don't play an instrument, and you think DJ's are musicians, you are giving DJ's too much credit.
Look at it like this...if you are a super hardcore DJ and spin on even 3 turntables....you are still playing 3 other peoples records....if you wrote a book where you word for word copied straight out of three books...you would get sued like a mother****er...
Why do you think DJ sets on CD have to have a track list, and have the copyrights cleared?
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strychnine
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Posted - 2002/12/12 : 11:58:43
quote:
Originally posted by kid cid:
It's quite simple. DJ's aren't musicians. Some of them come close...like QBert for instance...because he mutiliates tracks beyond all recognition, and makes something very different sounding....but if you took away from him the music that OTHER PEOPLE MADE - then what would he do? Well....QBERT happens to be talented enough he could probably make a track scratching on a piece of cardboard...that's why I would say *he* is probably a musician.
However, DJ's like that are few and far between.
I think this is where the whole argument boils down to - my point is that really good DJ's do enough of their own manipulation of the music that they should be counted as musicians. Frankly, I don't think it even matters anymore to anyone *shrugs*
*edit* Forgive me if I gave the impression at any point in this thread that it's all that important to me. It's not. I just enjoy arguing ... and that sonuvabitch Soren shot down one of my replies, and I wasn't about to take it sitting down
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Edited by - strychnine on 2002/12/12 12:13:08 |
atomicb
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Posted - 2002/12/12 : 12:55:54
haha, once again you both have valid points :)
No matter how much quoting you do ure never going to prove the other one wrong, nor get them to agree to your terms :)
I dunno, combing two things does tend to give you something diffrent, and seperate from what the person who made either of the songs you mixing inented. Sure they are meant to be mixed, but you are making constant choices, and so they deserve more credit than you give them. Soren, you say you found DJ'ing easy.. thats nice, perhaps you are one of the lucky few that just feel it ( I beleive to some extent I got that) But the choice of tunes, and the choice of when to mix, and how to mix the tunes you get.
This I would say would put theh higher than you rate them soren, but perhaps not as high as the classical definition of musician.
... I await your quote heavy ripping of me :D
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