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Raver_Davie
Senior Member
United Kingdom
281 posts
Joined: Jan, 2003
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 Posted - 2003/03/09 : 14:15:01
^^^ Couldn't agree more, amen brother!
For some reason I find lyrics that originated by mainstream artists that are used or ripped by underground artists (not just hardcore producers either) quite exciting. That drum and bass version of Chritina Agi-thingy's (can't spell her name!) song 'Dirrty' is quite good!
But when mainstream artists rip or use lyrics/tunes from the underground (not just from hardcore again either) it does really cheese me off.
If you think we feel bad about mainstream geeks knicking hardcore material think about people into rock music! Those bands had their own little group of supporters, like people who were dead passionate about them like we are with our music and maybe more. Imagine how they felt when 12 year old kids suddenly wear tops and T-shirts with their name on, even though they have never heard a song made by that band. They must be gutted, I hope this never happens to the hardcore scene. I'll cry! 
Dave!
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Dave!
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DJ Mouse
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
2,687 posts
Joined: Jul, 2001
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Posted - 2003/03/09 : 14:19:22
we just gotta face facts that this is the music scene and ppl rip off everyone else. it's how it goes and if there's potential in a hardcore song then someone (we all know who) is gonna be a greedy bastard and cover it to make a load of money
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"Did you know that eleven plus two is an anagram of twelve plus one?"
DJ Mouse
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pacman
Advanced Member
Australia
1,132 posts
Joined: Sep, 2001
190 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/10 : 02:14:46
i find it really amusing how some people feel like they have ownership over a certain form of music? you're all such hypocrites. so its ok for hardcore to use songs others wrote but as soon as it works the other way round it's "stealing". a whole lot of rhetoric gets thrown around about the "stealing" of tunes. i feel that as long as the quality of hardcore is still hot (and **** me it is) then what's the problem?
oh, i forgot... you're pissed off that someone else likes these songs and you've been into hardcore for (proverbially) five minutes. big deal.
get off your high horses! this is music! if you like it, then live it, and love it! it is beyond me how it can affect you whether or not other people use the same melodies and words as in the songs that you like? you obviously don't really love or understand the music for the right reasons.
trash.
drugs is not the answer... drugs? is the question... yes is the answer
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If Yoda so Smart in Force Is, Why Words in Right Order he Put Not?
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tommo
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,233 posts
Joined: Dec, 2001
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Posted - 2003/03/10 : 07:02:20
Ok,calm down pacman.
All I was saying was that people will listen to hardcore cover songs by f&f etc
and they will think that they wrote the sogs.And f&f get all the credit for it.
Thats all.
Im just a bassline addict
Im just a hardcore addict
Im just a dancefloor manic
Why o why cant you just accept it.
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virus
Advanced Member
Canada
4,346 posts
Joined: May, 2001
716 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/10 : 07:21:23
yea, and people listen to hardcore rips of trance songs and they think that they wrote the tracks..
theres no difference..
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My Record Collection Can Beat Up Your Record Collection.
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Don Giovanni
Senior Member
Canada
290 posts
Joined: Mar, 2002
43 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/10 : 11:16:57
Music was intended to be shared with others so that it may bring enjoyment to them too.
Anyone is free to change a song to make it match how they would like to express themselves (granted credit is given for the original ideas).
I don't like a lot of the rmxs done of certain tracks...but those new rmxs don't take change how great the originals are does it?
So instead of getting mad when u hear someone listening to a trance or whatever rmx of a HHC tune just accept it. Or maybe say 'hey have u ever heard the original hhc version?' Who knows they might acctually go listen to the hhc version and start listening to some HHC...and last time i checked more people liking HHC was a good thing.
btw for those of u that don't know our own beloved Eyeopener is taken from an old POP song called Open Your Eyes and the break down in the middle of Eyeopener is taken out of a Redman (or was it Methodman) RAP song...gives you somethig to think about b4 u get all mad
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'Together united as one indeed, WE ARE THE HARDCORE FAMILY!
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Together united as one indeed,
WE ARE THE HARDCORE FAMILY!
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pacman
Advanced Member
Australia
1,132 posts
Joined: Sep, 2001
190 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/10 : 13:54:10
yeah tommo i do understand your point and respect that as a songwriter myself, but what i'm saying is does it really matter if people are giving the likes of flip and fill credit? nick obviously knew it would happen, not to mention that flip&fill have been on tv and talked about bang!. so what if uneducated people are giving them credit? the original artist knows who his/her true fans are and will appreciate their respect.
but i think you're still being hypocritical. (not trying to argue just debate it) if you think about it, we give alot of happyhard producers credit for songs that they've 'stolen' too:
we give brisk & trixxy credit for 'eyeopener'.
we give vinylgroover credit for 'time'.
we give scott brown credit for 'turn up the music' and 'chase'.
we gave hixxy credit for 'castles in the sky'.
we give kaos credit for 'sunshine' and 'electric dreams' etc.
we give breeze & styles credit for 'angel'
we give jimmy j credit for '99 red balloons'
we give brisk & fade credit for 'stay here forever', 'delirious' and 'here comes the noise'
we give storm & herman credit for 'let it be the night'
need i say more?
drugs is not the answer... drugs? is the question... yes is the answer
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If Yoda so Smart in Force Is, Why Words in Right Order he Put Not?
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DJ Mouse
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
2,687 posts
Joined: Jul, 2001
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Posted - 2003/03/10 : 13:55:52
leaving the covers to the side for a minute,what do you all think of interactive bringing out a commercial cheesy version of forever young?
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"Did you know that eleven plus two is an anagram of twelve plus one?"
DJ Mouse
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virus
Advanced Member
Canada
4,346 posts
Joined: May, 2001
716 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/10 : 17:04:05
*we give interactive credit for 'forever young'.*
their '94 version was pretty cheesy and commercial to begin with. i'm sure it was in the charts when it was first released..
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My Record Collection Can Beat Up Your Record Collection.
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Nick of Blaze!
Average Member
United Kingdom
196 posts
Joined: Sep, 2001
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Posted - 2003/03/11 : 00:18:59
Writers credits are often very confused. I've said this many times before, but the producers of the tracks, (the people that sit at the mixing desks and create the final versions you hear on vinyl, cd etc) are not always the writers.
The writers of the songs are the people that have the very first ideas for lyrics, melodies, music etc. They then create a version of thier song that then exists under all copyright law because it's been created and that then goes on to be reproduced for release. This may be on just a guitar or piano.
Coincidentally, these people may also be the people that actually create the versions that go onto the plastic, but not always.
In my case, I created all of the original versions of the Bang!/Blaze! etc material that you hear. So I am the writer of those tracks and the ONLY writer, except for a couple that I co wrote with Tom Orton and "See Me Climb" where I gave away 50% of the publishing and writers credits to Ham because they didnt want to release it and I needed the money and I knew it was a great track. Next Generation have created "remixes" of my original versions.
Writers credits look something like this:
"Shooting Star" (Arnold) Peermusic (UK) Ltd. Produced by H.Dean Next Generation Records Ltd.
TITLE (writer/s) publisher producer recording owner.
Many times I've seen on sleeves containing my songs that Ham & Brisks names are included when in fact they have never contributed to the writing of any of my material at all. A typing error I presume.
Within the industry, the writer is always the most important part of the process and gains the most respect, simply because, without the writer, there's no tune to release, remix etc. You wouldn't believe how many people I've met that think Atomic Kitten wote Tide is High, but thats cool, because thats the way it works, the people that matter know the truth.
So, getting back OT, the covers of hardcore tracks firstly, in my experience, have been licensed correctly, and through the proper channels (MCPS/publishers), whereas, I hear many many hardcore records that contain other peoples copyrights, that are neither licenced nor accredited to those original writers. Maybe the hardcore scene should clean up it's act and be a bit more professional about the way it conducts it's business, oooh the stories I could tell.....
There's always the arguement about why within the industry as a whole, major labels, distributiors, radio stations, TV etc don't take hardcore seriously, and this is one of the contributory factors. It's so unprofessional that they don't want any involvement.
What other events do you go to and see the promoters blatently selling tape packs and never paying a penny in royalties?
What other genres, so blatently rip off people without correctly licensing and release records and license to compilation companies?
And speaking of compilation companies.... what respected company, knowing that this goes on constantly, is going to run the risk of releasing these tracks into the mainstream and maybe lose thier licences with the MCPS, effectively closing down their business? They only do it, when the profit margin outweighs the risk of getting caught.
Even some of the people on this board are selling a CD containing loads of other people works!!!! COME ON, where will it stop?! But that isn't their fault, and I dont blame them, they genuinely don't understand that they cant mix a few tracks together and sell them on a CD, as far as they're concerned, they did the mixing, so they should get the rewards. (At least I HOPE thats what they believe).
There once was a guy on MP3.com called DJ LSI (or something like that), and he took Hams original mix of Shooting Star, chopped it up so it was all in a different arrangement to the original, then put it on MP3.com for sale saying he wrote it. It actually said, "Written by DJ LSI, produced by DJ LSI". Even after me mailing him, he still insisted that Hams version was Hams version, and his version was different, so it was his version. That's what we're up against.
So, PLEASE lets put this silly thread to bed. Silver, make it sticky so that newcomers don't ask this same question over and over again. I'm sure someone could put together all the main points on the arguement and put it at the top of the forum for a while so that the questions are answered.
Remember:
F&F and anyone else on AATW aren't STEALING songs, tracks etc, they're legitimately and legally licencing them with the owners consent AND accrediting them correctly.
If they were stealing them, does anyone seriously believe that Hixxy, F&S, Next Gen (Stimulant), Scott Brown, etc etc would be working with them ?
A song is something with a melody & lyric, a track is the final version of that melody/lyric. There can be many tracks, but only one song.
Regarding the new mix of Love of My Life, I'll be speaking to the guy that wrote it today.
Really sorry for the mammoth post,
Nick.
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djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/11 : 00:32:06
Brilliantly said Nick.
Spoken by one who REALLY knows what he's talking about.
Don't worry about the length of the post - when it's that good, who cares?
Looking forward to hearing your new stuff soon.
We're dancing wall to wall, all creatures great and small
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Taking my time to perfect the beat
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tommo
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,233 posts
Joined: Dec, 2001
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Posted - 2003/03/11 : 06:39:21
Well said Nick.
Im just a bassline addict
Im just a hardcore addict
Im just a dancefloor manic
Why o why cant you just accept it.
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fazza
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,126 posts
Joined: Sep, 2002
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Posted - 2003/03/11 : 06:54:05
quote:
Really sorry for the mammoth post,
no worries mate! everything you say is totally worth reading! its all really helpful and informative so post replies as long as you want!
"I feel you, i want you, i know your touch is all i need, im waiting you're shining"
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strychnine
Advanced Member
Australia
2,268 posts
Joined: Feb, 2002
92 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/11 : 12:19:21
I think someone should take Nick's post above and bundle it up as some kind of "Cover versions and rip-offs: A Songwriter's Perspective" document that we can just link to anytime someone bitches about F&F or some other mainstream act "ripping off" (pfft) hardcore. Maybe throw in Pacman's little list to really hammer home just how hypocritical that attitude is.
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It had to be done.
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Kaffine
Senior Member
United States
474 posts
Joined: Jun, 2002
91 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/03/13 : 10:50:09
I don't want to sound like an *******...
BUT... ****!
How often do we sit around on our asses and bitch about how much other music sucks!? We're not in it to complain and whine because other people steal what makes our music special, we're here to be proud because we LOVE our music, no matter who rips it off or who ruins it with their crappy trance remix. If we spend all our time concerned about stupid shit like that how are we gonna enjoy the real hardcore?
Get over it. If we're as great as we think we are, we'll inevitably be ripped off. It's a fact of life. And besides, the only way to counteract this is to keep churning out newer, kick-asser choons that put their remixes to shame. That's what we're about, eh? We're about the hardcore.
Someone tell me if I'm way off.
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