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Inferno
Junior Member
United States
109 posts
Joined: May, 2002
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 Posted - 2003/02/20 : 19:05:19
I, personally, agree with both sides of this arguement. If the scene were to lean one way or another, the music would be hurt financially either way. But, there is also the idea of the different buyers to consider.
Someone who -only- listens to the music will not find ordering songs two at a time from a far away place to be played on a large machine very convenient, so a cd serves their purpose well. And while mp3's are on the rise, I know a large number of people, if not the majority, will still buy a cd for the...whatever reason of owning an official cd, whether for the quality, giving money where it's due, etc.
But as was stated earlier, it is much more impressive to see a dj working with a pair of decks and their vinyl collection-seeing that kind of dedication makes it worth it. Sure, the convenience of cdj's will make them preferable but there must be plenty of those who are attached to tradition. Once tracks are available to the public, things may get overplayed and the nostalgia of hearing a favorite song will wear off when -everyone- is playing it. "Rare" tracks will essentially be eliminated, or at least the rarity will be lessened and the excitement of a discovery won't be felt at all.
(IMHO)
Hardcore will never die
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pacman
Advanced Member
Australia
1,132 posts
Joined: Sep, 2001
190 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 01:44:55
while i won't state any reasonable arugment, i will say this. imagine what damage it will do if/when one can buy 600-700 songs on one mp3cd for about $20... think about it
drugs is not the answer... drugs? is the question... yes is the answer
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Stevie c
Advanced Member
Belgium
3,836 posts
Joined: Dec, 2002
204 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 03:57:11
Pacman, I understand but the newest stuff you can't get
Would love to get Deffinition of a bad boy free but can't be done. Can get loads of old cool stuff but nothing bang up to date. I won't get good or famous for playing old tunes, so in regard to djing the arguement doesn't stand up. To get the best quickly everyone has to pay for a limited supply, By the time its up for grabs, its old
Your into the sound of Rebellion
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Skyler
Junior Member
107 posts
Joined: Mar, 2001
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 03:59:51
strychnine: I didnt say CD's were to blame for piracy, I am merely trying to show the damage that they can and will do to vinyl and the whole scene.
Having CDDecks allows someone to download from an almost unlimited supply of hardcore music. They can download almost any tune in your record collection and play them out, only they have not paid for it. Do you think that is fair to anyone? With CDDecks its a lot easier to excuse yourself from buying the music.
Years ago the mp3 scene was for DJ's by DJ's. DJ's ripped mp3s for each other so they could test out new promos and work out what they wanted to buy. They couldnt DJ with them because they werent vinyl, so they always went out and bought the vinyl of the tracks they liked. This kind of activity helped the hardcore scene a huge amount, it spread the hardcore sound around to far more people and pretty much increased sales. Now CDDecks are a real viable option for DJ's (moreso than they have been in the past) those who download the mp3s no longer need purchase the vinyl to play them out. Once they have the mp3 rips they wont really feel like buying the CD Single either, as they already have something the same quality and all they are effectively paying for is a label (and supporting the artist). Less people will buy vinyl, and CD Singles will only really be bought by the general public.. which is another debate. The whole mainstream hardcore issue is a strange one and I dont think there is a right answer for and against it. All I will say is that all previous genres of underground music that have gone mainstream have suffered a great deal in terms of quality and originality. I really dont want this to happen to hardcore :)
Inferno is also quite right about rare songs being eliminated, any song you own that is classed as rare on vinyl is going to lose its value a great deal thanks to people with CDDecks downloading the mp3 rips and using them instead. I think DJing as a whole will suffer from CDDecks, the whole mystery of finding a real gem of a tune that is totally obscure and rare will be lost.. CD's dont have the magic of Vinyl.
pacman also makes a good point, CD's like that will be readily available in the future and even if they arent sold they will be passed around. Everyone will be able to get their hands on any rare tune thats been ripped and all DJ's would end up with the same load of tunes, which is bad for the people as we would begin to lose diversity.
CDDecks do have advantages when showcasing new talent however, its easy to put your latest few tracks on a CD-R and be able to play it out. Currently with Dub Plates being the main form of showcasing new tunes about the place and with those being so expensive I can understand why new talent like CDDecks. I am all for new talent being showcased on CDDecks, my main gripe with them is the damage they and the mp3 scene can do to vinyl and the DJ industry as a whole..
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DJ Affliction
Junior Member
United Kingdom
123 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
149 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 05:57:24
quote:
Originally posted by Skyler:
strychnine: I didnt say CD's were to blame for piracy, I am merely trying to show the damage that they can and will do to vinyl and the whole scene.
Having CDDecks allows someone to download from an almost unlimited supply of hardcore music. They can download almost any tune in your record collection and play them out, only they have not paid for it. Do you think that is fair to anyone? With CDDecks its a lot easier to excuse yourself from buying the music.
Years ago the mp3 scene was for DJ's by DJ's. DJ's ripped mp3s for each other so they could test out new promos and work out what they wanted to buy. They couldnt DJ with them because they werent vinyl, so they always went out and bought the vinyl of the tracks they liked. This kind of activity helped the hardcore scene a huge amount, it spread the hardcore sound around to far more people and pretty much increased sales. Now CDDecks are a real viable option for DJ's (moreso than they have been in the past) those who download the mp3s no longer need purchase the vinyl to play them out. Once they have the mp3 rips they wont really feel like buying the CD Single either, as they already have something the same quality and all they are effectively paying for is a label (and supporting the artist). Less people will buy vinyl, and CD Singles will only really be bought by the general public.. which is another debate. The whole mainstream hardcore issue is a strange one and I dont think there is a right answer for and against it. All I will say is that all previous genres of underground music that have gone mainstream have suffered a great deal in terms of quality and originality. I really dont want this to happen to hardcore :)
Inferno is also quite right about rare songs being eliminated, any song you own that is classed as rare on vinyl is going to lose its value a great deal thanks to people with CDDecks downloading the mp3 rips and using them instead. I think DJing as a whole will suffer from CDDecks, the whole mystery of finding a real gem of a tune that is totally obscure and rare will be lost.. CD's dont have the magic of Vinyl.
pacman also makes a good point, CD's like that will be readily available in the future and even if they arent sold they will be passed around. Everyone will be able to get their hands on any rare tune thats been ripped and all DJ's would end up with the same load of tunes, which is bad for the people as we would begin to lose diversity.
CDDecks do have advantages when showcasing new talent however, its easy to put your latest few tracks on a CD-R and be able to play it out. Currently with Dub Plates being the main form of showcasing new tunes about the place and with those being so expensive I can understand why new talent like CDDecks. I am all for new talent being showcased on CDDecks, my main gripe with them is the damage they and the mp3 scene can do to vinyl and the DJ industry as a whole..
Wow wot a long response!!!!!!!
Sum1 has a bit 2much time on their hands
Hardcore u know the score!!!!!!
DJ Affliction
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Stevie c
Advanced Member
Belgium
3,836 posts
Joined: Dec, 2002
204 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 06:20:55
erm, i just did that on yah or nah thread, but it was my 290 post, so ithough it should be worth it
Your into the sound of Rebellion
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CDJay
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,049 posts
Joined: Nov, 2001
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 07:22:48
I'm speechless. Lost for words. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
The logic in evidence here is truly astounding, do any of you work for a government?
This anti CD crap is using the same arguments a lot of people ( and studios ) used when DVD first came along. Talk of how "if it was cracked" ( which it was, very quickly ) it would kill the home video market dead.
No1 even saw the proliferation of broadband and DivX coming, hell they'd have had a heart attack.
The amusing thing? DVD is MAKING these studios now, the sales are beyond any rational expectation, it's the fastest selling consumer tech or media platform. Ever.
Anyone who tries to use these tired theories about piracy to curb progress is... well I won't say what I think. It's not nice tho.
End of rant.
CDJay
"Are Eph You?"
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Ruffage
New Member
Canada
45 posts
Joined: May, 2001
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 07:48:41
To all the people who think CDs and CDJs are the root of all evil, and will bring down the hardcore scene; clearly you're very much right.
Let us consider the following:
The popularity and use of CDJs and similar in the hardcore scene has increased from next to unheard-of to something that's commonplace today.
If your theories were correct, one would expect vinyl sales to be inversely proportional to this over the same period of time (read: vinyl sales go down).
Now then, as most of us know, vinyl sales have been steadily increasing over the past two years, and show no signs of letting up.
So, to summarise (just in case you missed the point):
Vinyl sales have risen despite CDJs being significantly more popular over the same period of time.
Ruffage
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rezzna
Senior Member
United Kingdom
283 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2003/02/21 : 11:38:43
the main issue here is that vinyl is traditional, its been around since whenever, and they dont want to see their vinyls pushed asidde to make way for cds. i can totally understand why, vinyls are great media, walking out of a shop with a bag full of 12" music is so much mor satisfying than aload of piddly little cds. Piracy isnt the issue, the issue is no one wants to see labels stop production of vinyl to focus on cd production, which is a very real threat in the not too distant future.
the difference in manufacturing cost means huge increases in profit for the labels, cheaper choons for the consumer, and easier distribution.
its perfectly possible for any CDJ to put all their vinyl on to cd for quite a small amount of time and effort, so they can choose to DJ cds or vinyl, whatever their preference.
i dont want to see vinyl die, but there is a chance that it will. no matter how much the consumer protests at losing their vinyl, the producer will get what they want.
its different for hardcore, because its a far more personal relationship between producer and consumer, i mean we can quite easily get in direct contact with some of the biggest names in the uk scene, but when big dance labels stop it because they are more like big business, vinyl pressing as a means of production will change immensely.
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CDJay
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,049 posts
Joined: Nov, 2001
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Posted - 2003/02/22 : 01:32:22
surely no1 believes that CD is going to replace vinyl, in this scene at least, anytime soon?
Even the most ardent pro-CD people ( such as myself ), who doesn't like vinyl at all, thinks that the ideal scenario is where there is choice! That's vinyl AND CD.
I think a fair few people would actually buy both a vinyl and CD version of a release they really liked.
CDJay
"Are Eph You?"
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rezzna
Senior Member
United Kingdom
283 posts
Joined: Nov, 2002
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Posted - 2003/02/22 : 01:45:30
not anytime soon no, as the vinyl users far outumbers cd users, but im looking at it from a producers point of view.
as cddecks beome more and more populer, perhaps in 5, 10, even 20 years time, producers are going to start phasing out vinyl production, as its so expensive.
theres nothing malicious in the producers intent, its just pure economics.
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strychnine
Advanced Member
Australia
2,268 posts
Joined: Feb, 2002
92 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/02/22 : 07:03:42
quote:
Originally posted by pacman:
while i won't state any reasonable arugment, i will say this. imagine what damage it will do if/when one can buy 600-700 songs on one mp3cd for about $20... think about it
They can do that already.
quote:
Originally posted by Skyler:
Having CDDecks allows someone to download from an almost unlimited supply of hardcore music. They can download almost any tune in your record collection and play them out, only they have not paid for it. Do you think that is fair to anyone? With CDDecks its a lot easier to excuse yourself from buying the music.
True ... but not having the music available on CD in the first place does pretty much the same thing. Removing CD decks from the market is not an option, so you might as well give CDJ's a chance to buy the music instead of being forced to pirate it.
Like Oli G said, people are already ripping full high-quality mp3's from vinyl and sharing them, but there are still a lot of people who by records. People have been ripping CD releases (mixes etc) and sharing them for a very long time, but Anabolic Frolic is still the 3rd biggest seller of electronic music in N America. My point is that while CD singles will increase piracy (let's not be stupid here), I think that there will still be an overall increase in sales arising from the offering of a cheaper and more accessible medium for people to buy their hardcore on, and I feel that increased overall sales will justify any associated increase in "lost sales" which, let's face it, you were never gonna see anyway.
Oh and another thing, in response to everyone who says that non-DJ's can still buy mix CD's: (1) only a bare fraction of releases will make it onto a licensed mix, so the non-DJ's range of choice is severely limited, and (2) the DJ's artform by definition involves manipulating and changing the music in some way or another, so it can be argued that the listener isn't allowed to appreciate the track entirely as the producer wrote it.
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Edited by - strychnine on 2003/02/22 07:13:50 |
atomicb
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
621 posts
Joined: May, 2002
60 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/02/22 : 07:27:27
strychnine, you're on another roll! ;) (and one day I'll learn how to spell your name instead of copying and pasting it each time :P).
If you look at the big picture, piracy isn't always bad. Piracy is the reason I have spent 300+ pounds in a year on hardcore vinyl (alot of money I hope you'd agree, even more so to someone of my quite young age of 16). So I pirated about 30 quids worth of hardcore in my time (back in the days where it seemed suspicous that all happy hardcore seemed to be made by mr frolic ;)) but then I spent this huge amount on cd's and vinyl as soon as I find out what it was.
If I hadn't pirtated that bit of hardcore, I wouldn't have spent the rest, hence I'm saying that for me the piracy, followed by the sales, was for the greater good. Now I know the scene, know the lables, I'll never pirate hardcore again, and I dnt share my (legally!!) ripped copies of bonkers 8 + 9.
In all but a few rare cases (the people that do this are twats IMO), if a resnobly priced alternative exists that they know of, people will *not* pirate stuff. i.e. *most* music from loved artists, favorite films. You can get all of this for free, but why? why do it when you like it? just by the damn stuff coz you wan't to put ure money where your mouth is. This is how I feel with hardcore. Anything I really like, I buy, even if I can download it.
The reason piracy exists in hardcore is because as we've discussed there's no viable alternative. If I wanted 90% of the tracks I have on vinyl on a cd so I could listen to then, I'm screwed - only way is to download and rip them. Clearly this isn't good, but I can see why it happens. The point (which amazingly I'm still remebering this far in) is that CD DJ tech isn't the cause of this, it just highlights the problem.
The problem being - joe public can't get hardcore release X legally if he doesn't have a deck. I *love* decks for dj'ing, but clearly tech has moved on for normal music use - cd's, MD, mp3's . . . The producers should prick thier ears up and realise they are losing revenue they could have! Hopefully they'll catch on and sell them at some point.
As it's also been said, CD DJ'ing is never going to over take vinyl - vinyl won't go down without a fight! Vinyl is still very much the medium of the DJ, but CD's have thier uses - Both can easily survive at the same time.
peace out ;)
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strychnine
Advanced Member
Australia
2,268 posts
Joined: Feb, 2002
92 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2003/02/22 : 08:01:19
Yeah it's been a while since we had a good ol' serious discussion in these parts ... w00t for teh argumentcore massive, y0!!!!!!!!!!!11
Anyway, back on-topic, I agree with pretty much everything you said except ...
quote:
Originally posted by atomicb:
If I wanted 90% of the tracks I have on vinyl on a cd so I could listen to then, I'm screwed - only way is to download and rip them.
Nah you can actually (legally) rip the tracks off vinyl onto your HDD, then burn as many copies as you want for personal use. Mind you, you gotta remember to destroy every copy if you ever get rid of the record, else the RIAA will send an elite task force to your house and kill your family and rape your dog or something.
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tommo
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,233 posts
Joined: Dec, 2001
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Posted - 2003/02/22 : 08:10:11
Hehe.
Returning to the topic:
I don't think vinyl will ever die out,they're older than God.Hehe.
I'm actually not too keen on cds meself,theres something about tapes and
especially vinyl that fascinates me.
Im just a bassline addict
Im just a hardcore addict
Im just a dancefloor manic
Why o why cant you just accept it.
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