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LeVzi Advanced Member
United Kingdom
944 posts Joined: Feb, 2019
Posted - 2020/10/18 : 09:55:07
I listened to this yesterday, and it was a good listen. Was interesting to see how Styles and Force hooked up and started (With the Evolution)
They made a great point, why the 90's is unique and unrepeatable. And why it impacts UK Hardcore so much.
I kinda take it for granted I was listening to music evolving so fast over 10 years. 90's old school to breakbeat to 4 beat to whatever you call it at the end. So much variation and so much fresh new stuff. no wonder it was so special. I'd never really thought of it like that tbh. 3 maybe 4 changes in style over 10 years in the same Rave bracket. Id say its more like 6 or 7 , if you count the "branch offs " Like bouncy techno, trancecore etc.
The mix they did too is a good example of it. Listening to it now, the energy in that style of music in all it's forms just still makes my adrenaline flow
9oh9 Junior Member
United Kingdom
119 posts Joined: Jun, 2017
Posted - 2020/10/18 : 11:25:27
Brilliant interview, some real insight into what was going on at the time. Looking at the UK Dance discography you can see what they were talking about, they released a shedload of tracks from '96-97 with the same "Force & Styles classic" formula. The last track in that style was "Follow Me"; I guess then that's when they started struggling with the sound, wanting to switch things up but not being happy with the results. Then you've got a few releases from other people, and Darren on his own (I wonder if he had help engineering Feeling Fine and Distant Skies from someone else, if he was still learning the ropes in the studio?).
Interesting hearing about the infamous "hardcore summit" meeting in '99 too haha. I'd always wondered why they tried to play trance at a hardcore rave! They said that nobody else followed along with what was decided (to try and slow things down), but to be fair that could be why Hixxy was pushing the B-Trax/Bonkers 7 sound at the time too?
Still love Force & Styles, probably my favourite artists from the genre; looking forward to part 2 of the interview!
Si Thompson Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,362 posts Joined: Mar, 2016
Posted - 2020/10/18 : 13:02:38
quote:Originally posted by 9oh9:
Interesting hearing about the infamous "hardcore summit" meeting in '99 too haha. I'd always wondered why they tried to play trance at a hardcore rave! They said that nobody else followed along with what was decided (to try and slow things down), but to be fair that could be why Hixxy was pushing the B-Trax/Bonkers 7 sound at the time too?
Hixxy was starting to play Trance/Hard Trance imports in 1998, so it wasn't to do with that 1999 meeting.
I must admit, I did smile when Grant suggested slowing the music down. Brisk wouldn't have been impressed.
9oh9 Junior Member
United Kingdom
119 posts Joined: Jun, 2017
Posted - 2020/10/18 : 18:24:53
quote:Originally posted by Si Thompson:
quote:Originally posted by 9oh9:
Interesting hearing about the infamous "hardcore summit" meeting in '99 too haha. I'd always wondered why they tried to play trance at a hardcore rave! They said that nobody else followed along with what was decided (to try and slow things down), but to be fair that could be why Hixxy was pushing the B-Trax/Bonkers 7 sound at the time too?
Hixxy was starting to play Trance/Hard Trance imports in 1998, so it wasn't to do with that 1999 meeting.
I must admit, I did smile when Grant suggested slowing the music down. Brisk wouldn't have been impressed.
He might've been playing a few imports, but Bonkers 7 was an entire album disc of trance influenced hardcore that him and UFO knocked out at 160-165 bpm; sounds pretty much like what F&S were saying with "everyone was told to go away and make a few tracks at a slower speed"! Would love to hear what F&S came up with, doubt we ever will though...
Si Thompson Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,362 posts Joined: Mar, 2016
Posted - 2020/10/18 : 19:09:12
quote:Originally posted by 9oh9:
quote:Originally posted by Si Thompson:
quote:Originally posted by 9oh9:
Interesting hearing about the infamous "hardcore summit" meeting in '99 too haha. I'd always wondered why they tried to play trance at a hardcore rave! They said that nobody else followed along with what was decided (to try and slow things down), but to be fair that could be why Hixxy was pushing the B-Trax/Bonkers 7 sound at the time too?
Hixxy was starting to play Trance/Hard Trance imports in 1998, so it wasn't to do with that 1999 meeting.
I must admit, I did smile when Grant suggested slowing the music down. Brisk wouldn't have been impressed.
He might've been playing a few imports, but Bonkers 7 was an entire album disc of trance influenced hardcore that him and UFO knocked out at 160-165 bpm; sounds pretty much like what F&S were saying with "everyone was told to go away and make a few tracks at a slower speed"! Would love to hear what F&S came up with, doubt we ever will though...
Just assertions. I guess we will never know for sure.
Samination Advanced Member
Sweden
13,072 posts Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
Posted - 2020/10/19 : 07:23:49
If they're complaining that Hixxy told them to go and make slower Hardcore, how come that F&S mix on the first post sounds slowed down?
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber http://samination.se/ ---------------------------------------------
Alert moderatorEdited by - Samination on 2020/10/19 07:24:12
Si Thompson Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,362 posts Joined: Mar, 2016
Posted - 2020/10/19 : 09:11:52
quote:Originally posted by Samination:
If they're complaining that Hixxy told them to go and make slower Hardcore, how come that F&S mix on the first post sounds slowed down?
They weren't complaining that Hixxy told them anything. It was the general consensus that came from the meeting that was called by Grant and Mike. Force & Styles were one of the advocates in bringing the BPM down.
Samination Advanced Member
Sweden
13,072 posts Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
Posted - 2020/10/19 : 15:12:21
I don't know if they said that in the interview since I didn't listen to all of it, so I didn't know that.
But it does make more sense that Darren had it easier to transist to slower "hardcore"
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber http://samination.se/ ---------------------------------------------
LeVzi Advanced Member
United Kingdom
944 posts Joined: Feb, 2019
Posted - 2020/10/21 : 05:33:21
I can't vouch for what Bonkers was doing as I never liked the series anyway, Bonkers 1 I bought, and I thought it was "ok" but I never liked the Sharkey mix. It was going down the trance route and was going to push that. For me when United Dance Vol 6 was released, that was the end of it for me.
It wasn't just hixxy pushing the trancy sounds, it was bunter, ramos and force & styles too. That was the death of hardcore for me, and the reason the scene died. I've always said this, ever since my last rave in 1998, that Bang the Future bollocks was the cause, because people jumped on it, slowed the music down and the scene just lost interest.
And if any of them said to me now, the scene would have gotten worse if we'd stuck with just HHC, i'd call them a liar, as even though the HHC was getting too cheesy, it was still throwing out good tracks. More so than the trancier sound. If you like trance, GREAT, **** off to a trance rave, or open a trance room at the venues. That trancecore thing Sharkey was pushing wasn't received well at the time, and only a few dedicated Sharkey fans would push it too, the original HHC heads never budged.
I can remember hearing Sharkey's set at Kinetic, and he was saying Its the future. I said then, it fking isnt. Yes freeform came from that as a result, but that scene has always been a minority.
Well the interview was really interesting, as I dunno how they worked out the music was too fast. That's been the essence of the rave scene, even back in the day, look at the only club in the UK that was rammed every single friday night without fail, Kinetic. Why ? Because they played faster than anywhere else, and even HHC cheese sounded wicked at 170 to 180 bpm.
Those DAT's that they talk about, I hope they surface, i'd like to hear them.
9oh9 Junior Member
United Kingdom
119 posts Joined: Jun, 2017
Posted - 2020/10/21 : 12:30:40
I can see why F&S were wanting to slow it down; as they said in the interview, they were looking at commercial/crossover projects, and the speed of 170+ bpm would be one of the barriers to that.
I'd make a distinction between "trancecore/freeform" and "trancey hardcore". Bunter and Ramos were more towards the freeform side of things and pretty niche, I'm not sure how much Bang The Future etc really influenced what was going on with the sound being played in the main rooms. Tbh I'd say a lot of the hardcore was more trancy than the freeform by '99!
The impression I got was that they jumped on the trance bandwagon because trance was massive, and the scene was dying on it's arse in '99. As they said in the interview, it just took a couple of years to get the production right, and that's when the raverbaby sound started to take over.
As to what would've happened if they hadn't gone down the trance route, who knows? I guess something would have had to change, they weren't getting the crowd numbers in '99 anymore? If they'd persisted with the '96-97 happy hardcore sound and succeeded I've no idea where we'd be now!
LeVzi Advanced Member
United Kingdom
944 posts Joined: Feb, 2019
Posted - 2020/10/22 : 04:47:31
When that trance sound came , the original hardcore heads left. I remember hearing it (Forget from who) at Dreamscape 27 NYE and I said at the time it was shit.
I could see it around me , people not enjoying it as much. Wasnt much of it, F&S were playing it, I walked out of their set, but tbh, I never rated them as DJ's after they went F&S, when it was Force & the evolution they were much more open to other styles, not just bashing their own stuff.
tbh the music wouldn't have been popular the way it had gone by then either, the tranceore / freeform sound brought a whole new bunch of people to the scene, and the parties kept going, only a few were trying to make something remotely HHC. Then obviously UK Hardcore was born and the rest is history.
I don't think anything was ever going to save the HHC scene as it was. It was a tired thing then, as the raves were not the same. Terry Turbo was running DS, I dunno how long he kept it going after that. He was a decent promoter tbh, when he took over it kept it's vibe, DS 23 was awesome tbh. One of the best. As was DS 26. Anyway, can go back n forth with the What If's.
I'd be more pressed on how to bring Hardcore back as a genre, as I saw a live stream yesterday from a promotion and the music was awful, really really bad.
Samination Advanced Member
Sweden
13,072 posts Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
Posted - 2020/10/22 : 08:19:06
To be honest, if it hadn't changed, I would probably never have gotten into Hardcore. Sure I had some albums already back in 2000 (Off yer Nut!! 1 and 2) but it was just something I bought on random because it was in a sales bin.
But funny enough, I enjoyed Demo's mix more than I did Fury's, and the stuff on Fury's mix was something I later liked a lot more than the stuff on Demo's mix.
And I didn't really like the stuff on Brisk's mix on OYN2, and I later came to like Happy2bHardcore Chapter's three to six, and most of the same tracks on Brisk's mix were on those 4 albums
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber http://samination.se/ ---------------------------------------------
Alert moderatorEdited by - Samination on 2020/10/22 08:20:08
9oh9 Junior Member
United Kingdom
119 posts Joined: Jun, 2017
Posted - 2020/10/22 : 16:30:53
quote:Originally posted by LeVzi:
I never rated them as DJ's after they went F&S, when it was Force & the evolution they were much more open to other styles, not just bashing their own stuff.
Yeah, much as I love F&S for their production, they weren't the strongest DJs. To be fair, I'd expect them to play a lot of their own stuff, but listening to tapes they always seemed to play the same tracks from other labels too; (Love of my life, Braveheart, Devotion, Shooting Star, Together Forever every set it seems like!).
9oh9 Junior Member
United Kingdom
119 posts Joined: Jun, 2017
Posted - 2020/10/22 : 16:43:33
quote:Originally posted by LeVzi:
I'd be more pressed on how to bring Hardcore back as a genre, as I saw a live stream yesterday from a promotion and the music was awful, really really bad.
TBH I don't know what could bring it back now. Most of the top names have lost interest, there's nobody with any clout to push it sadly. Maybe something interesting will happen with the "new oldskool" Kniteforce type sound, but most of the people into "new oldskool" are pushing 40+ years old and not going out raving every weekend (ignoring COVID!).
LeVzi Advanced Member
United Kingdom
944 posts Joined: Feb, 2019
Posted - 2020/10/23 : 04:45:14
I think that Hardcore either needs to find it's feet again and the UK Hardcore "style" i.e. Kick - Off beat Bass style is the way to go, or go back to the big 4 beat kick. People say that 4 beat kick style is done, but I haven't heard anyone try to modernise that. But then maybe it can't be. Who knows, but for producers would be fun finding out.
As regards what Samination said, I think that Bang the future sound brought a LOT more people into the raves as the older HHC heads moved away, not all as I know plenty who liked that style, but the music slowed down and the raves werent as popular in terms of feet on the ground. That trancy sound bridged into the birth of UK Hardcore and Freeform and that's the 00's on tap tbh.
I guess it allowed a lot of places to survive and allowed the birth of new rave brands like Uproar and Slammin vinyl (Slammin back in the day were not really doing anything of interest)
Whatever the future holds , there is enough older hardcore for people to enjoy. And non stop mashups of classic tracks.
90's Rave Podcast - Force & Styles
Printer friendly
Posted - 2020/10/18 : 09:55:07
