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Thread |
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Luna-C
Average Member
United Kingdom
222 posts
Joined: Dec, 2004
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 Posted - 2008/12/11 : 01:52:19
Below are my thoughts about my new website, and the opinions are mine alone! :D
I would like to make a few observations about the Kniteforce Revolution project and about putting the entire back catalogue online for free!
Firstly, I have been lucky enough to have a great deal of support from many people over the years who have paid for my releases, firstly on vinyl back in the day, right up to when I was selling CDs and the complete collection as MP3s.
In some ways, it could be seen as a betrayal for me to give away the music that people had spent money on. But the truth is, the industry has changed, and I have decided to change with it rather than fight the inevitable. Its little comfort to those who paid for the back catalogue, I know. But if those people hadn't done that at that time, I wouldn't have been able to reach this point in the first place. And I am forever grateful to those who paid. Sadly, though, it is the nature of things to lose value, and the music business is no exception.
The music industry is damaged beyond repair in my humble opinion. This doesn't mean its time to give up - rather, it means its time to look at the whole industry from a different perspective. To wax lyrical, the phoenix rises from the ashes - but first, you have to have the ashes. The whole music scene has been burning itself to death for years, as many cling to an old way that no longer works. Right now, we are all kicking the last embers of an old fire that has burned the same way for nearly 100 years. Change has come.
I would love for music to still be on vinyl. I would love for selling MP3's to be as exciting and profitable as vinyl used to be. It would be excellent if people didn't file share.
But I choose to live with what is, not what I wish for. And so, I choose to move forward in a riskier direction. And its a big risk - I can't take this back or change my mind, even if I wanted to (which I don't). On the other hand, with things being the way they are, the value of music has dropped in a very large way. This is simply the truth. People who argue it are clinging to the old model of the music industry, hiding from reality, and are in for a rude awakening eventually.
And its okay that things have changed. In this, there is freedom. The very fact that the old way is dead means that a new way can live. No longer is the record label the king of the artist. Acts like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead have already dispensed with the need for a record label, and they are just a few of many. These 2 examples may be world famous acts, but the facts remain the same regardless of the size of the artist.
We are at a turning point, the past and the future balanced. But the weight is moving in one direction only.
It used to be that the Dj or the live performance promoted the music. Bands and Djs would tour the country promoting their music in their sets, to get high sales of their albums and singles.
Now, the music promotes the live performance. The live performance cannot be copied, or shared, except by the people that paid to see it. This is why Nine Inch Nails can give away an album for free, yet charge $100.00 for a ticket to see them live.
For the last few years, I have seen this in shift in value in my own tiny sphere of influence. KFA vinyl sales are okay - but they barely cover costs. I am not the only one. A big tune is, what? 1000 units? When I started Kniteforce, a big tune was 20,000. Kniteforce pressed 5000 units as a first run from KF025 (Piano Progression) up to around KF040. And before Kniteforce, the sales were even higher.
Now, 300 units is to be expected. In the meantime, Supaset 7 had tens of thousands downloads in the year or so it was up on my Kniteforce Revolution holder page. How can that many people download my set, and record sales be 300 copies? Think about that. Thats a lot of people listening to me, and not buying my records lol.
For years, like many in the industry, I moaned and cried about file sharing. I tried to enhance record sales. I was as protective of my music as I could be. The results were that..err...well, nothing changed. Record sales continued to drop, and will continue to do so. I meet Djs who have never owned a record. Djs who mix on laptops.
I love vinyl, but vinyl is dead. I will still release vinyl, but I will do so because I like releasing vinyl. Its a selfish act, done for my own pleasure and for the pleasure of those that love vinyl as much as I do.
However, I recognise that things have changed, and I am moving to embrace those changes instead of fighting what cannot be fought, or burying my head in the sand.
I intend Kniteforcerevolution to become a hub for the legal sharing of hardcore music, both Kniteforce related and other labels. Not just the music either - I am already putting up the samples from my tunes as well. A time will come when I can work on a projects, get halfway, then post it for others to finish. And vice versa.
These are just possibilities, just a few thoughts as I sit here and type. But its exciting to think of what could happen, rather than what is not working.
The internet has levelled the playing field. Making and releasing music is not about who you know, its about what you know. And about what you will do. I don't know what I will do yet, or what the future holds for Kniteforce or Hardcore in general. But I know it wont be what I did before - its new, exciting, and there are endless possibilities. And that, my friends, is a very good thing.
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Edited by - Luna-C on 2008/12/11 01:55:54 |
Jackol
Senior Member
United States
443 posts
Joined: Nov, 2008
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 02:02:06
I think it's good that the industry is moving forward.
Keep on truckin!
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mj-dream
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,440 posts
Joined: Jan, 2005
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 02:13:39
absolute complete respect from me and i truly mean that 
to put the whole catalogue up must have taken some balls but will be enjoyed by thousands.
QUOTE-I intend Kniteforcerevolution to become a hub for the legal sharing of hardcore music, both Kniteforce related and other labels. Not just the music either - I am already putting up the samples from my tunes as well. A time will come when I can work on a projects, get halfway, then post it for others to finish. And vice versa.-QUOTE
now that is some great thinking and i would like to see it in effect :P it may even get me making tunes again(not that i was any good :( lol) rather than complaining about the state hardcore is in.
i applaud you i honestly do 
__________________________________
mmmm i love it hard
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Mental_Adam
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
845 posts
Joined: Feb, 2006
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 02:16:02
I appreciate that you've decided to go with putting you're entire back catalogue on the net. As i was born in 1989 and was only a kid when the music i now love came out.
I agree with you on the point of value decreasing in music, as i sell alot of music on ebay and i've noticed a big decrease in sales as well as lost profits.
I've decided the only way i can make a comfortable profit is to list my items on a fixed price and you'd be suprised by the amount of interest and sales by doing it through this method.. As people tend to pay more abroad than say people in the UK.
How i see it, the law is fighting a losing battle with file sharing... People are fed up with high prices and are resorting sadly to illegal downloads. Due with the situation with all the prices going up and things not looking to bright exspect people to continue doing so whatever the cost of your CD/MP3
Also, with your legal file sharing with the great early to mid 1990s music which has been produced. This i know will attract a new audience and as well hopefully give people a piece of mind on the old days of the scene.
Sadly, we can't go back to the past now. As you said, the possibilities are their to be had for the future.
I think if this trend works with you're hardcore, hopefully people will turn away from alot of the greedy labels who are raking in the majority profits of the hardcore genre. Then go on to support artists like you and labels like Kniteforce. Even though kniteforce is a well regarded name in Core but IMO it deserves the recognition as say the poor releases what are coming out now I.E. Clubland X-treme Hardcore and many notable other band wagon releases.
I've been listening to alot of the kniteforce releases, future primitive, alk-e-d and you're two name variations... It is so great to hear these tracks, some i haven't even heard before until now. All i can say is thanks for doing this and respect to you.
__________________________________
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Edited by - Mental_Adam on 2008/12/11 02:21:20 |
raindancerob
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,588 posts
Joined: Sep, 2008
|
Posted - 2008/12/11 : 02:27:10
quote:
Originally posted by Luna-C:
Below are my thoughts about my new website, and the opinions are mine alone! :D
I would like to make a few observations about the Kniteforce Revolution project and about putting the entire back catalogue online for free!
Firstly, I have been lucky enough to have a great deal of support from many people over the years who have paid for my releases, firstly on vinyl back in the day, right up to when I was selling CDs and the complete collection as MP3s.
In some ways, it could be seen as a betrayal for me to give away the music that people had spent money on. But the truth is, the industry has changed, and I have decided to change with it rather than fight the inevitable. Its little comfort to those who paid for the back catalogue, I know. But if those people hadn't done that at that time, I wouldn't have been able to reach this point in the first place. And I am forever grateful to those who paid. Sadly, though, it is the nature of things to lose value, and the music business is no exception.
The music industry is damaged beyond repair in my humble opinion. This doesn't mean its time to give up - rather, it means its time to look at the whole industry from a different perspective. To wax lyrical, the phoenix rises from the ashes - but first, you have to have the ashes. The whole music scene has been burning itself to death for years, as many cling to an old way that no longer works. Right now, we are all kicking the last embers of an old fire that has burned the same way for nearly 100 years. Change has come.
I would love for music to still be on vinyl. I would love for selling MP3's to be as exciting and profitable as vinyl used to be. It would be excellent if people didn't file share.
But I choose to live with what is, not what I wish for. And so, I choose to move forward in a riskier direction. And its a big risk - I can't take this back or change my mind, even if I wanted to (which I don't). On the other hand, with things being the way they are, the value of music has dropped in a very large way. This is simply the truth. People who argue it are clinging to the old model of the music industry, hiding from reality, and are in for a rude awakening eventually.
And its okay that things have changed. In this, there is freedom. The very fact that the old way is dead means that a new way can live. No longer is the record label the king of the artist. Acts like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead have already dispensed with the need for a record label, and they are just a few of many. These 2 examples may be world famous acts, but the facts remain the same regardless of the size of the artist.
We are at a turning point, the past and the future balanced. But the weight is moving in one direction only.
It used to be that the Dj or the live performance promoted the music. Bands and Djs would tour the country promoting their music in their sets, to get high sales of their albums and singles.
Now, the music promotes the live performance. The live performance cannot be copied, or shared, except by the people that paid to see it. This is why Nine Inch Nails can give away an album for free, yet charge $100.00 for a ticket to see them live.
For the last few years, I have seen this in shift in value in my own tiny sphere of influence. KFA vinyl sales are okay - but they barely cover costs. I am not the only one. A big tune is, what? 1000 units? When I started Kniteforce, a big tune was 20,000. Kniteforce pressed 5000 units as a first run from KF025 (Piano Progression) up to around KF040. And before Kniteforce, the sales were even higher.
Now, 300 units is to be expected. In the meantime, Supaset 7 had tens of thousands downloads in the year or so it was up on my Kniteforce Revolution holder page. How can that many people download my set, and record sales be 300 copies? Think about that. Thats a lot of people listening to me, and not buying my records lol.
For years, like many in the industry, I moaned and cried about file sharing. I tried to enhance record sales. I was as protective of my music as I could be. The results were that..err...well, nothing changed. Record sales continued to drop, and will continue to do so. I meet Djs who have never owned a record. Djs who mix on laptops.
I love vinyl, but vinyl is dead. I will still release vinyl, but I will do so because I like releasing vinyl. Its a selfish act, done for my own pleasure and for the pleasure of those that love vinyl as much as I do.
However, I recognise that things have changed, and I am moving to embrace those changes instead of fighting what cannot be fought, or burying my head in the sand.
I intend Kniteforcerevolution to become a hub for the legal sharing of hardcore music, both Kniteforce related and other labels. Not just the music either - I am already putting up the samples from my tunes as well. A time will come when I can work on a projects, get halfway, then post it for others to finish. And vice versa.
These are just possibilities, just a few thoughts as I sit here and type. But its exciting to think of what could happen, rather than what is not working.
The internet has levelled the playing field. Making and releasing music is not about who you know, its about what you know. And about what you will do. I don't know what I will do yet, or what the future holds for Kniteforce or Hardcore in general. But I know it wont be what I did before - its new, exciting, and there are endless possibilities. And that, my friends, is a very good thing.
well i for one will continue to buy vinyl, anyone can download tunes for free (both legally & illegally) but i like the collecting part of it, to own a record for me is more rewarding then owning the mp3. however respect for hosting your complete back catalogue & all that you have done for the scene.
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Edited by - raindancerob on 2008/12/11 02:31:36 |
Col1n-S
Junior Member
United Kingdom
81 posts
Joined: Nov, 2008
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 02:27:27
Big Respect for putting the whole catalogue online - NO artist i know would do this!!
I'm sure thousands of old and new fans will appreciate what you have done.
I wish you all the best in the future Chris
Many thanks!!!
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Audio X
Advanced Member
United States
670 posts
Joined: Feb, 2004
13 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 06:26:20
BEST CHRISTMAS PRESENT EVAR!
You are a legend among legends Chris. :D
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Underloop
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,895 posts
Joined: Mar, 2002
91 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 06:47:22
Not only is this an amazing thing to do for the music buyers and incredibly brave (for which I thank you) it is also incredibly pioneering for someone to finally be moving the scene forward.
I have bought many of the tracks that you have put up for free, but certainly do not feel betrayed now others can get them for free. However, if you wish to refund me....... ;-) Seriously though, I think it is great that many others will get the benefit of the enjoyment of your music and for this I raise my hat!
I have been harping on for a while that the business model for the music biz needs to change. The "Internet Revolution" is too big for even the likes of Sony / Universal to fight against, let alone the small labels such as those in the Hardcore scene. By taking music back to the emphasis being on live performances I think the music industry will be better for it - at least as far as the consumer goes. Hopefully the benefits will be seen by the performers and businesses working hard to push the industry forward.
The very best of luck and again thank you.
__________________________________
"We don't stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Audio X
Advanced Member
United States
670 posts
Joined: Feb, 2004
13 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 06:55:46
Wow, now that I'm done gushing over all of this, I've got to say... if this doesn't single-handedly kick-start an entire generation of mashup artists and rave producers, I don't know what will. We won't know for a little while just exactly what the effects of this will be, but I'm extremely excited for where this will go.
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Mental_Adam
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
845 posts
Joined: Feb, 2006
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Posted - 2008/12/11 : 12:29:15
If there is a label to support and donate to this is the one.. I'm putting full support to kniteforce now for letting us have all this material.
__________________________________
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Tha Kid Vicious
Starting Member
United States
14 posts
Joined: Jul, 2003
238 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2008/12/15 : 08:45:30
Chris; You are an INCREDIBLE Human Being... Not just as a musician, or turntablist, but also as a 'Class A' guy; a GREAT supporter/innovator of HC/DnB - in good times & bad.
I'll be tha first to admit that I ("illegally") download tracks that are either:
1) Unreleased
2) Never-To-Be-Released
-OR-
3) I simply can't WAIT to play, prior to receiving tha vinyl...
That being said, I will ALWAYS pay for digital releases that ARE made available for purchase, and, on top of all that, I ALWAYS have, and will continue to, buy vinyl releases, just as soon as they are made available for purchase... Simply because I will always be a Turntablist first, and a "DJ", second.
... I have YOU, Simon Cranny, & Chris Sargeant to thank for that. Cheers, matey... You will ALWAYS be top-notch in my book!!!
As always, I look forward to speaking with you soon. Take care.
Cheers! :)
T-K-V
***Always remember tha reason for tha season - Merry CHRISTmas, everyone!***
__________________________________
Cheers! :)
T-K-V
http://www.Ruff-Biznizz.com
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Future_Shock
Advanced Member
Australia
2,483 posts
Joined: Apr, 2007
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Posted - 2008/12/15 : 09:07:56
I'm not going to sit here and blow smoke up your ass. I do think it is an awesome thing to do and i am genuinely impressed and appreciative that someone who has put so much work into something is now giving it away for free. Theres just nothing else i can add that other people haven't said. Its a truly amazing thing to do.
But it raises questions in my head about your future projects and the music industry as a whole.
Does this mean all your future projects will still be given away for free? Will you be even making new material any more?
As for the music industry, if everyone follows this trend what will happen to it?
I think there are good points and bad. For the plus side, it will filter out all the producers who aren't doing music purely for the love of the scene and production in general. It will be an outlet for new and creative ideas, that don't have to be signed to a label.
Sadly, i feel this also encourage plagiarism. Without a release, who's to say who actually made what material? Take Rankin as an example. If there were never any releases, who would know if he didn't make the track? It would turn into a he said/she said argument. Sure, assuming you're doing it for the love, you MIGHT not care what name its under, aslong as people enjoy it - but in saying that, to some people, like me, its not about the fame or recognition. I would hate to see my work manipulated into something else and plagued with someone else's name on it. It would make me feel strange, but also with name recognition, you draw in more poeple as people "look out" for your material, or contact you directly. This makes it easier to distribute the music you love and have slaved over to more people, and thus making you happier. Even without the money... Just the fact that more people heard your music.
On another note, if this WAS a revolution that started... Where does this leave the music industry? I said above that it would filter out "money-grabber" so to speak, but what this means is there will be no more producers making msuic full-time. This would make a lot of people unhappy as they would need another job to satisfy what they REALLY love doing - which they could have done in the past - even if it means JUST getting by. Note im referencing the music industry AS A WHOLE, not just hardcore.
I'm not sure whether this whole idea is good or bad. What i DO know is that i was amazing, and truly generous... But the RIGHT thing? I'm not sure. I'm not saying it isn't - I'm not saying it is either... Nobody can predict the future. This "revolution" could bring more happiness, better music, and more equality to the industry - on the other hand, it could almost completely crush the industry itself into the ground.
I commend you for your actions, and im truly genuine in that statement. What i AM sure of though, is that at least this is DIFFERENT and SOMETHING will change. What that is? Who knows... I'm sure time will tell, though.
__________________________________
New Future Shock Hardcore: https://soundcloud.com/futureshockgroup
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acidfluxxbass
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
5,000 posts
Joined: Apr, 2008
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Posted - 2008/12/15 : 14:03:59
Im sitting in college reading this Currently Playing: Luna-c podcast episode 1
Ur just and awesome dude. What you set your sights on and intend to do is inspirational. The industry, as it changes will damage many producers and labels but its a transition you seem to have sussed and many haven't. Although, the impact of file sharing is beyond belief how even the biggest music names - outside hardcore as well as within - can be hindered by the fact they dont get the return theyt need on mp3 stores and cd's in the shops..
I have bought countless cd's from bonkers to clubland, true to underground, but i only download mixes and podcasts for the less publisiced tunes. there is also the odd free downloadable track on here, or on myspace. the ones posted a while ago, the 26 full tracks were gold dust aswell.
Not sure what im really getting to.. but good work and keep up your great work. It takes a true man and a passionate producer and mixer to put the entire back catalogue online for free.
You're like jesus, or something.
__________________________________
Aka Archefluxx
Soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/archefluxx
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/afbofficial
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/archefluxxuk
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SPOOX
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
2,644 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2008/12/15 : 14:14:41
I appreciate you putting them all up for free. I bought a lot of your releases back in the day & i'm so grateful i can now get the ones i missed out on. Massive thank you Luna-C.
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,281 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2008/12/15 : 14:14:57
I wont try to say that filesharing is the best thing that happened, but without I woudln't have ever gotten into hardcore. I might, or not, have gotten into it later, but then I propably wouldn't have spent as much money as I have now (and miss alot of classics that I bought as cheap as possible :P)
In my opinion, filesharing hardcore around the time Napster propably helped promote hardcore outside UK/US (seriosly, how do you except people who haven't heard this kind of music to know about big selling CDs or raves?). But now... not even I can say anything good about it
The main music industry waited to long to release material digitally, instead of just concentrating on fighting filesharing. But then the Music Industry has always been against new formats being created (ie Orchestra's hated the grammofone disc when those where introduced).
back to topic, it's a very generous move. Can't say that I have bought alot of Kniteforce material, haven't really been to my liking.
Kid Vic... seriously, from a filesharer to another... who the fcuk would admit on downloading unreleased/promos? oh well, except for 1 site.
__________________________________
---------------------------------------------
Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
---------------------------------------------
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Edited by - Samination on 2008/12/15 14:52:35 |
Luna-C
Average Member
United Kingdom
222 posts
Joined: Dec, 2004
|
Posted - 2008/12/15 : 16:38:25
Thanks for all the props...I would like to answer Andy Influx, as his post raises questions that I had thought of before making the site. So I thought I would reply! I will do so in part form, as its simplest!
"Does this mean all your future projects will still be given away for free? Will you be even making new material any more? "
I will 100% be making new material. And it may all be free eventually - that will be decided on the basis of how this all turns out. In the end though, the back catalogue will do more good for the label being free than being sold. In truth, it made very little money via MP3 sales. It is always this way. Things lose value as time goes by. To compare a new Dj Luna-C release with Luna-C project 1 is not a fair comparison, and their values are not the same. So it is okay to charge for one, and give the other away for free.
"As for the music industry, if everyone follows this trend what will happen to it?"
No idea lol...I don't think anyone knows what the hells going on anyway, so it doesn't really matter, if you see what I mean?
"Sadly, i feel this also encourage plagiarism. Without a release, who's to say who actually made what material?"
Enough people will know the truth, thats the thing with the internet - the truth comes out eventually. Your example of Dj Rankin is perfect to prove this. You get caught eventually. Perhaps without the releases, then yeah, that might be a problem. But I don't know - with established artists like me, who were lucky enough to come in when the physical product was the only way to get music, I think it will be okay. The history acts as a security for the future, to a certain degree. Newer artists might have that trouble though. We will see, eh?
"I would hate to see my work manipulated into something else and plagued with someone else's name on it. It would make me feel strange"
This is happening anyway. I dont like it either, but there it is. Plus, I am guilty of it too, at least to a certain degree. I sample, therefore I manipulate other peoples music. I sometimes think there is very little to say about sampling being as guilty of it as the next man lol.
"...but also with name recognition, you draw in more poeple as people "look out" for your material, or contact you directly. This makes it easier to distribute the music you love and have slaved over to more people, and thus making you happier. Even without the money... Just the fact that more people heard your music."
Hmmm...yeah. I see that it will get harder to both prove who made it, and keep people looking for your stuff, once it is free. Its a risk for sure. I am okay with it - I guess its for the individual to decide, but I also think its not in the individuals power to control. And thats just how it is.
"On another note, if this WAS a revolution that started... Where does this leave the music industry? I said above that it would filter out "money-grabber" so to speak, but what this means is there will be no more producers making msuic full-time. This would make a lot of people unhappy as they would need another job to satisfy what they REALLY love doing - which they could have done in the past - even if it means JUST getting by. Note im referencing the music industry AS A WHOLE, not just hardcore."
I don't see that making music full time should have such an emphasis. I guess I am too idealistic. But here's me, I cant make money from THIS music full time. I could pimp myself out, make TV music, make other styles, try to break into pop, whatever. But i choose to make hardcore, and in that choice, I accept that there is little money in it. So, I will work and get money another way. Or, (As I have actually done) I slim my expenses right down. I buy almost nothing, and live frugally, because I would rather do that than compromise my music.
I don't know if that is foolish or brave - I think only the result defines either. A man rushes into a burning house and gets killed? Fool. A man rushes into a burning house and saves a baby? Brave. See what I mean?
I have always used my life as an experiment to a certain degree. I am not really attached to "things" and letting the catalogue go was both painful and joyous. Its one less thing to hold me in a static position. I think as the years go by, my artist mind has taken over from both my ego and my business mind. One of the personal reasons for doing this is that I can no longer go back and remix Six Days if I have made it available to all. I felt the need to take away my own safety net. I need to get myself up and running. I work best when I am not safe and secure. Recognising that, I take the steps I need to take. So while this is a generous thing to do, its not selfless, because I believe it will benefit my label and me. And if I am wrong? I am okay with that too. Either way, I will not be what I was, nor will i be tied to the past.
Ha ha...how long winded. But there, thats what I think. Now I have to get back to making some music...incidentley, I have already felt re-energised about music since releasing the catalogue. I feel like I was asleep for the longest time...
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