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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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 Posted - 2011/12/28 : 15:31:43
I remember Hard2Get mentioning this a while back which interested me because I had always discussed this with other ravers and they never quite knew what I was talking about. This isn't anything to do with arguing about different styles of hardcore, please take that elsewhere.
I've noticed particularly when I listen to upfront in clubs there tends to be far too much bass to the point it drowns out synths and vocals. I've listened to this on a range of sound systems from godawful ones to Funktion One soundsystems which are apparently the best money can buy. What's the cause of the excess bass? It's never been dependant on the club as everything from tacky bars to the Air superclub in Birmingham have all had this problem, this has happened with virtually every DJ and I don't believe they're ALL redlighting the EQs, so what's the deal?
I wonder if the offbeat bass is too thick or maybe tracks aren't being mastered correctly? I've noticed every time I've heard tunes engineered by Pinnacle they've always sounded amazingly crisp in comparison to every other tune, and also the pianos have been so clean they put other tracks to shame. I've noticed 96-99 hardcore doesn't seem to have this problem as much, but the 91-94 breakbeat old skool does. None of these problems are prevalent at home on a household stereo system.
Whenever I've spoken to raver friends they've never understood what I mean but they never ever rave sober and I tend to notice it whenever I'm sober raving (which is actually more times than not). I'm not enough of an expert on soundsystems to pinpoint the problem exactly but it'd be nice for others to weigh in on this. It's kind of a shame when I want to sing along with the vocals but basically end up singing by memory instead of singing because I can hear it, they often seem to be drowned out by "BVVVVTTVRVEBERBB" and that's not electro or anything, just normal upfront UK Hardcore and also Old skool breakbeat hardcore. Thoughts?
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/28 15:32:31 |
Hard2Get
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 15:45:58
I've only really noticed it with Hardcore and as far as i can tell it's because of the tempo and the offbeat bass. They kind of just run into each other due to bass frequencies taking longer to die out, and the negative reverb effect of a small venue. That and they aren't engineered very well a lot of the time so the low end on the track is really muddy. I find melodic Hardcore to be mostly pointless in most venues because you can't really hear it anyway apart from on breakdowns. Music where the the emphasis is on the bass works much better, especially if it's much slower. One place where i went where the sound was actually really clear (comparitively anyway) was Evolution in Cardiff, that was great.
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Edited by - Hard2Get on 2011/12/28 15:50:50 |
NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 15:56:21
quote:
Originally posted by Hard2Get:
I've only really noticed it with Hardcore and as far as i can tell it's because of the tempo and the offbeat bass. They kind of just run into each other due to bass frequencies taking longer to die out, and the negative reverb effect of a small venue. That and they aren't engineered very well a lot of the time so the low end on the track is really muddy. I find melodic Hardcore to be mostly pointless in most venues because you can't really hear it anyway apart from on breakdowns. Music where the the emphasis is on the bass works much better, especially if it's much slower.
I have to say that just from getting stuck into producing I've noticed that 1997 hardcore tends to use the stabs that were used for melodies in 96 hardcore as the offbeat bass (maybe with some extra bass underneath) whereas the UK upfront offbeat bass does seem a bit longer than a quick stab, I suppose pitching up the records doesn't help either. I used to do a lot of hard house raving and I never noticed it in that but then Hard House doesn't have the same big vocal breakdowns and so on as hardcore so it's difficult to make a comparison.
How come this hasn't been addressed though? I know people like Breeze and Gammer and some other more technical producers take a lot of pride in getting everything to sound right so how come they haven't noticed? Maybe it sounds different through their monitor speakers but surely they must have noticed walking into a club and hearing another DJ play.
Also Psytrance has this problem too in clubs, you feel more of the music through the floor than you do out of the speakers, but then I think Psytrance is only suitable for outdoor spaces as the big wooshy effects need the space to breathe rather than bounce off club walls.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/28 15:58:19 |
danielseven
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Italy
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 15:56:42
Actually I was feeling the same thing. Happy Hardcore (the one with riffs and trancey stuff) works better in open venues more than closed ones, like for example at HTID in the Sun.
That's also the cause about more minimal uk hardcore (dubcore, elektrocore) and harder UK Hardcore (DJ Kurt bits) working more than the riffy one.
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Edited by - danielseven on 2011/12/28 16:05:06 |
NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 16:04:06
quote:
Originally posted by danielsomma:
Actually I was feeling the same thing. Happy Hardcore (the one with riffs and trancey stuff) works better in open venues more than closed ones, like for example at HTID in the Sun.
I'd agree, I was talking to Breeze and Gammer on twitter about how I don't really think that the electro hardcore is particularly rave music (bare with me, I'm not taking this off-topic) and they said it's just the way the music has evolved but I think really that's a crucial difference between the two styles. Something with lots of riffs and melodies needs a venue where the sound can really travel like an outdoor rave whereas the more tighter, techier, bassier stuff is more suited to clubs where you're surrounded in bass. I can't ever imagine listening to Tech House in a field, it's much more suited to a club, but for say - acid house where you have lots of hypnotic sounds whirling around, it'd be much more suited to an outdoor venue where these elements can breathe a bit more.
Goa trance also comes to mind, this simply does not work in a club or indoor venue, you need a wide open space for it because there's such little emphasis on the bass but instead it's all about the melodies overlaying each other and acid lines.
And to expand on the psy thing, I actually think Darkpsy and Forest psytrance which is very thick, swampy music would probably sound better in a club, yet in real life you often won't hear it in a big open field, but instead a clearing in the forest where you're surrounded by trees, it does suit enclosed areas much more.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/28 16:06:20 |
danielseven
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 16:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by danielsomma:
Actually I was feeling the same thing. Happy Hardcore (the one with riffs and trancey stuff) works better in open venues more than closed ones, like for example at HTID in the Sun.
I'd agree, I was talking to Breeze and Gammer on twitter about how I don't really think that the electro hardcore is particularly rave music (bare with me, I'm not taking this off-topic) and they said it's just the way the music has evolved but I think really that's a crucial difference between the two styles. Something with lots of riffs and melodies needs a venue where the sound can really travel like an outdoor rave whereas the more tighter, techier, bassier stuff is more suited to clubs where you're surrounded in bass. I can't ever imagine listening to Tech House in a field, it's much more suited to a club, but for say - acid house where you have lots of hypnotic sounds whirling around, it'd be much more suited to an outdoor venue where these elements can breathe a bit more.
Goa trance also comes to mind, this simply does not work in a club or indoor venue, you need a wide open space for it because there's such little emphasis on the bass but instead it's all about the melodies overlaying each other and acid lines.
Amazing. So you (and I suppose even Breeze, Gammer and Darren Styles probably) got about why they're changing their sound a lot with this brand new stuff. Venues should be really much bigger for play hardcore with riffs when it gets kicked in. I suppose that Westfest would be a good place, nope?
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Edited by - danielseven on 2011/12/28 16:08:33 |
NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 16:24:02
quote:
Originally posted by danielsomma:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by danielsomma:
Actually I was feeling the same thing. Happy Hardcore (the one with riffs and trancey stuff) works better in open venues more than closed ones, like for example at HTID in the Sun.
I'd agree, I was talking to Breeze and Gammer on twitter about how I don't really think that the electro hardcore is particularly rave music (bare with me, I'm not taking this off-topic) and they said it's just the way the music has evolved but I think really that's a crucial difference between the two styles. Something with lots of riffs and melodies needs a venue where the sound can really travel like an outdoor rave whereas the more tighter, techier, bassier stuff is more suited to clubs where you're surrounded in bass. I can't ever imagine listening to Tech House in a field, it's much more suited to a club, but for say - acid house where you have lots of hypnotic sounds whirling around, it'd be much more suited to an outdoor venue where these elements can breathe a bit more.
Goa trance also comes to mind, this simply does not work in a club or indoor venue, you need a wide open space for it because there's such little emphasis on the bass but instead it's all about the melodies overlaying each other and acid lines.
Amazing. So you (and I suppose even Breeze, Gammer and Darren Styles probably) got about why they're changing their sound a lot with this brand new stuff. Venues should be really much bigger for play hardcore with riffs when it gets kicked in. I suppose that Westfest would be a good place, nope?
I guess so, it's probably not intentional that they changed it for the clubs but when you master down a track it's not uncommon to play it out through a club system and then tweak parts of it you think sound off (Sy and Unknown mentioned this on their producer tutorial) so I think by default their sound is being tailored for clubs yet in the old days it would have been tailored for open spaces and warehouses...but then they probably weren't able to do a redraft because of pressing vinyls etc. so I'm not sure.
Westfest is held in a few converted warehouses I believe, which I think have had a lot of club-interior decor changes as the event has become more popular over the years (Like the Raindance acid house events). I've never been to Westfest but I've heard one time it was so hot in there that condensation from people sweating was dripping off the ceiling and falling onto the turntables and messing them up (Nice!). I think if you wanted to put the theory to the test you could check out the outdoor raves at HTID in the Sun (some of them are in clubs) for Upfront UK Hardcore and also Fantazia and Epidemik for outdoor old skool happy hardcore.
I'm not sure if it's still like it (It should be) but the Amnesia superclub in Ibiza has an open roof so you can see the sun rise over your head as you dance through the night and into the morning. I have no idea of the acoustics there, but I've only ever heard good things about that club, which mainly plays House and Trance music and was one of the main reasons club culture and electronic music started here in the UK (Following a holiday by Nicky Holloway, Paul Oakenfold and Danny Rampling).
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Cubeforce
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 19:32:00
Are you using earplugs or not? I find hardcore near impossible (and probably ear damaging) to listen to while out without having earplugs in, the bass and general loudness just drowns out the other parts of the tracks.
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NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 19:47:07
quote:
Originally posted by Cubeforce:
Are you using earplugs or not? I find hardcore near impossible (and probably ear damaging) to listen to while out without having earplugs in, the bass and general loudness just drowns out the other parts of the tracks.
Nope, I do know that they help though, but it's always made me think "why should we need earplugs to enjoy this music?" know what I mean? Thisshitaintlogical.jpg
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Entity
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 23:21:08
Could be down to any number of things. Ultimately, if the track sounds fine on a loud and decent home/car system, then it will either be down to the club's set-up/accoustics, or the DJ going "Oooh! Lots of pretty red lights all over the mixer".
I've lost count of the amount of sets I've heard where the only thing I can really hear clearly are the breakdowns!
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Edited by - Entity on 2011/12/28 23:28:52 |
Brian K
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Posted - 2011/12/29 : 01:46:28
part of it could be production, part of it could be the accoustics in the venue, and part of it could be the dj or the person running sound.
I've seen several good djs put mixers into the red. I've been guilty of it as well (too easy to get carried away in a set  ). Some people have their home setups to play in the red so they don't think anything of it when they are playing out and the system is set up to clip in the red.
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jimmyhypa
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Posted - 2011/12/29 : 11:29:25
quote:
Originally posted by Cubeforce:
Are you using earplugs or not? I find hardcore near impossible (and probably ear damaging
I use ear plugs every event I go to, I've found the same and do believe my ears were getting damaged before I started to use them.
In regards to the sound In most clubs I tend to find it more enjoyable with ear plugs due to only being able to hear drowning bass without. I think it might just be the In thing for clubs who accept hardcore to do because like Hard2Get said I've only found it mostly with Hardcore.
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Edited by - jimmyhypa on 2011/12/29 11:30:05 |
danielseven
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Posted - 2011/12/29 : 12:15:04
quote:
Originally posted by jimmyhypa:
quote:
Originally posted by Cubeforce:
Are you using earplugs or not? I find hardcore near impossible (and probably ear damaging
I use ear plugs every event I go to, I've found the same and do believe my ears were getting damaged before I started to use them.
In regards to the sound In most clubs I tend to find it more enjoyable with ear plugs due to only being able to hear drowning bass without. I think it might just be the In thing for clubs who accept hardcore to do because like Hard2Get said I've only found it mostly with Hardcore.
I do remember that even Gaz Fracus uses them everytime for the same motivation you told.
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Wilky
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Posted - 2011/12/29 : 12:16:00
its proberly ear damage I've worked in clubs that don't do hardcore and find the same thing... but at the same time my ears go ****ed up over certain frequencies in everyday life...
proberly due to raving and working the clubs
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Claxton
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Posted - 2011/12/30 : 14:44:14
I have to say, a couple of years ago I noticed this exact same thing. The bass really over powers the higher frequencies making them hard to hear unless its a breakdown.
But recently I haven't really noticed it to be honest. It sound has generally been a lot more crisp and clear. That to me would suggest that the music and production is of a higher quality.
I think that there is probably a number of factors. The offbeat bass combined with the tempo is definitly one cause, quality of sound system, acoustics of room and the volume of the music (which at hardcore raves I find to be much higher than other club environments).
Perhaps I dont notice it as much anymore because I know the music better and I am listening through memory, which helps.
I remember one rave I went to which was at a club in Peterborough where I had the opposite problem. The room downstairs must have had the worse sound system ive ever come accross. There was little bass and the sound was tinny and cheap. Everytime the mc opened his mouth any bass that there was, was cancelled out as was the most of the music. Truely shocking.
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Karthy
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Posted - 2011/12/31 : 11:29:26
Noticed the exact same! Went to my first rave and was HUGELY disappointed with the lack of riffs and vocals that I could not hear! Many great tunes came on, but I had to listen closely to even recognise them. Felt like climbing over the barriers and telling the DJ's to turn the ****ing bass down, was majorly pissed off about it!
Honestly though, I think they could have simply just turned the lows down and it would've sounded fine (I swear they had it turned all the way up -.-)
But yeah I don't think every producer has the opportunity to club test their tunes, and small speakers tend to fail at picking up those sub bass frequencies that make a mix sound shit in a club.
That... and the fact they need to turn the low band down!!
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