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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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 Posted - 2012/01/14 : 00:35:02
It's cool Skidzors, don't worry about it.
On topic, you guys are probably right. There is probably a big moral, ethical and legal pitfall here. I'm not justifying it, but if you want some background info; when hardcore started people were literally chopping up the tape in cassettes and sticking them together to make new songs, right from day one, hardcore has always been a very DIY backdoor genre. Even the piano and vocals in some of the old SMD classics were ripped from old House songs, and of course the Amen break and other breakbeats were taken from Funky Drummer etc. by James Brown (I think).
Not saying that this makes it all OK but if you're looking for an answer to the question "why is it like that", then that's your answer pretty much, it's just carried along and nobody has really taken it far enough to do anything about it.
I know there's a misconception in America that Hardcore is MASSIVE in the UK, well this is proof that it really isn't that big here. People can do bootlegs and nobody really cares, I'm sure if it was the house scene then the music industry might take action, but Hardcore is still underground rave music to the public eye and nobody wastes a lawsuit on it.
There's definitely some double standards going on though, taking samples from chart music = okay. But from other Hardcore artists = Big no-no? It does seem a bit unfair, but what is there you can really do about something like that?
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B-Tek Project
New Member
United Kingdom
31 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 02:28:44
I don't see a problem with it as such. If it's only a few lyrics or a few kicks or stab samples etc.
But ripping off other peoples tracks, doing a few minor changes to it and then claiming it as your own *cough* Scott "The Plagiarist" Brown *cough* then that's a totally different ball game.
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Dys7
Advanced Member
United States
1,231 posts
Joined: Nov, 2011
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 03:19:27
quote:
Originally posted by B-Tek Project:
I don't see a problem with it as such. If it's only a few lyrics or a few kicks or stab samples etc.
But ripping off other peoples tracks, doing a few minor changes to it and then claiming it as your own *cough* Scott "The Plagiarist" Brown *cough* then that's a totally different ball game.
Some people actually completely rip off songs as their own. People like that Rank so much, its unCammy.
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B-Tek Project
New Member
United Kingdom
31 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 03:52:33
I know, the thing is, Scott Brown isn't much better than them. Granted he's done some amazing original tracks but the more you dig into his discography the more you realise how much he's ripped people off.
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Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 07:56:05
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
It's cool Skidzors, don't worry about it.
There's definitely some double standards going on though, taking samples from chart music = okay. But from other Hardcore artists = Big no-no? It does seem a bit unfair, but what is there you can really do about something like that?
Word.
And yeah, I never expected this topic to change anything that goes on, I just wanted people who think it's not okay for someone to steal their song, but then turn around and steal a sample, and then turn around and tell people not to steal THEIR samples, to realise that it's the exact same thing, and if they continue to do such things, then they have absolutely no right to get mad if someone rips their track, because they do it themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by B-Tek Project:
I don't see a problem with it as such. If it's only a few lyrics or a few kicks or stab samples etc.
But ripping off other peoples tracks, doing a few minor changes to it and then claiming it as your own *cough* Scott "The Plagiarist" Brown *cough* then that's a totally different ball game.
But the law says you must ask permission. And that permission may cost you thousands of dollars. Is it okay to bypass having to pay that money because it's only a "few kicks, or lyrics"? But that logic, than means bypassing having to pay for a song is alright because it's only "one song".
And I find it hilarious that you didn't even wait till a seperate post till you say something hypocritical. "It's okay to steal little bits", but what Scott Brown does is blasphemy. It's the same thing dude. Either its all okay, or its all not, theirs no middle ground (as far as being logical is concered.)
quote:
Originally posted by Dys7:
quote:
Originally posted by B-Tek Project:
I don't see a problem with it as such. If it's only a few lyrics or a few kicks or stab samples etc.
But ripping off other peoples tracks, doing a few minor changes to it and then claiming it as your own *cough* Scott "The Plagiarist" Brown *cough* then that's a totally different ball game.
Some people actually completely rip off songs as their own. People like that Rank so much, its unCammy.
Now that's a totally different story all together. Those idiots just speed up a song, place offbeat vocal samples on them, and release them as their own. The worst part is all the youtube idiots, and people on limewire praising them for their amazing songs. The even WORSE part is when I try to explain to them what the person did and show them the real song they tell me to **** off and if the musics good who cares if someone says its theirs, just listen to the music.
quote:
Originally posted by B-Tek Project:
I know, the thing is, Scott Brown isn't much better than them. Granted he's done some amazing original tracks but the more you dig into his discography the more you realise how much he's ripped people off.
And the more ridiculous he sounds when he tells people not to sample his tracks without permission.
The thing that really gets me angry, is when producers release sample packs for free, or a full track with samples and the Cubase/Fruityloops etc. project file, and they say that if anyone uses any sample on a track that's going to be released, or does a remix that is going to be released without permission then that person will be sued out the ass, and blackballed from the hardcore industry etc., when the producer them self steals samples without permission. If they do it, why aren't we allowed to do it back to them? Like I said before, a lot of people (not all, because there are a bunch of you here who aren't like this) only care about plagerism/fileshareing/stealing samples etc. when it applies to them. When it applies to other people, then **** it, steal all you want.
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Dante
Advanced Member
Vatican City State (Holy See)
1,185 posts
Joined: Dec, 2009
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 09:01:46
This genre is BUILT on sampling, of course I'm for it :p
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Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
12,837 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 15:13:20
Where are you going with this question by the way? Are you for or against sampling? Sampling and stealing someones music are clearly not the same thing. It's really not black and white like that.
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 15:23:21
I'm FOR sampling from a strictly musical point of view...depends on how far you go with it I guess. Stuff like using the line "pointed at yo temple with the intent to kill" (from a Public Enemy track) in Eyeopener as a quick SAMPLE isn't that bad as far as I'm concerned, but if you start to use a whole verse of a rap song and build the entire track around that then I think that's pretty weak musically, let alone the moral/legal implications of using it. You're not really using a 'SAMPLE' at that point, you're just taking something which isn't yours.
Hardcore is a mess though guys, I'm not saying "THE SCENE IS RUINED" or anything but from a legal perspective the music is a gigantic grey-area mess. You can find the most highly rated, classic quality hardcore track and you'll discover that the vocals were ripped from somewhere. Paul Elstak - Love U More had the vocals taken from an old eurodance song, and that's considered a Hardcore classic.
I liked Triple J for that reason, the vocals were written and recorded by the group themselves and they're unique, catchy and work brilliantly. Everyone knows the words and likes to sing along with it, regardless of the legal grey area I think there's just massive benefits from writing your own vocals and having them recorded yourself.
There are websites which amateur voice actors will also freely record vocal samples for you to play around with, you post on the forum what you want them to say and in what style you want them to say it, and they'll record it free of charge for you, just for practice, I know a lot of psytrance producers who use it a lot and get all their bizzare samples about human conciousness and so on from.
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Lilark
Average Member
United States
211 posts
Joined: Nov, 2011
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 18:01:52
Music is stolen everyday whether we like it or not. As soon as a song is released on YouTube, you know tons of people are going to "steal" it.
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 18:22:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lilark:
Music is stolen everyday whether we like it or not. As soon as a song is released on YouTube, you know tons of people are going to "steal" it.
I'd put my music on youtube. Not the full DJ length version - but a long enough version for ravers to 'steal' and listen to...sure thing. Most ravers I know get their music from youtube downloads, I wouldn't want to alienate them by putting up low quality samples with fades in and out and force them to buy something they are only commited to downloading on youtube. That way the sales of the record would be a much more accurate representation of how good the tune is, rather than just because I forced people into buying it. That information to me is much more valuable than the small amount of money I would gain from selling the tune and blocking every attempt to download it and playing cat and mouse with filesharers on the internet.
In the words of The Beatles, "Let it Be" =P I'm not saying everyone should do what I do but if it gets fileshared enough, then cool...I know it's at least in reasonable demand, if it isn't then I'm either not promoting it enough or the track isn't good enough. To me, it's a win/win either way, I get a good insight into how people see my music and the opportunity to learn more from it which is way more valuable to me early on in the game than money is.
Anyway...this was about samples not piracy...sorry to derail a bit there.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2012/01/14 18:23:45 |
DJ Lawlzy
Advanced Member
Canada
520 posts
Joined: Oct, 2007
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 19:38:23
As Dante said, this genre IS built on sampling, so are many other genres. Sampling is a wonderful thing, many artists are quite creative with their samples and how they use them. I love hearing samples get broken down and used in an unexpected way. It becomes an issue when you're not using the sample in a different context than the original (ie. doing the same as what the original song did). This goes for original tracks.
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Dante
Advanced Member
Vatican City State (Holy See)
1,185 posts
Joined: Dec, 2009
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 20:38:43
Also, Pitbull and Flo-Rida.
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The "artist" formerly known as Nakk(enboro)!
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http://soundcloud.com/bballs
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Edited by - Dante on 2012/01/14 20:39:05 |
djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 21:23:46
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
I'm FOR sampling from a strictly musical point of view...depends on how far you go with it I guess. Stuff like using the line "pointed at yo temple with the intent to kill" (from a Public Enemy track) in Eyeopener
Methodman & Redman actually 
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Taking my time to perfect the beat
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 21:25:05
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
I'm FOR sampling from a strictly musical point of view...depends on how far you go with it I guess. Stuff like using the line "pointed at yo temple with the intent to kill" (from a Public Enemy track) in Eyeopener
Methodman & Redman actually
Aaaaah which one was public enemy? Superior B Side?
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B-Tek Project
New Member
United Kingdom
31 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 23:23:28
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
quote:
Originally posted by B-Tek Project:
I don't see a problem with it as such. If it's only a few lyrics or a few kicks or stab samples etc.
But ripping off other peoples tracks, doing a few minor changes to it and then claiming it as your own *cough* Scott "The Plagiarist" Brown *cough* then that's a totally different ball game.
But the law says you must ask permission. And that permission may cost you thousands of dollars. Is it okay to bypass having to pay that money because it's only a "few kicks, or lyrics"? But that logic, than means bypassing having to pay for a song is alright because it's only "one song".
And I find it hilarious that you didn't even wait till a seperate post till you say something hypocritical. "It's okay to steal little bits", but what Scott Brown does is blasphemy. It's the same thing dude. Either its all okay, or its all not, theirs no middle ground (as far as being logical is concered.)
They are not the same thing. Using someone else's kick in a track is far from the blatant plagiarism that goes on in music. The whole scene (and others) is only here because of sampling not because of stealing other peoples music.
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