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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silver |
Taken from the news page:
A new organisation called PAID, short for Producers Against Illegal Downloads started last week. Taken from the press release:
In this day and age of high speed internet connections and Internet piracy, one things that has suffered badly is the music industry. From major labels having to drop artists and sack employees to independents going bust and up-and-coming artists giving up, things seem to be going from bad to worse. The biggest problem is that the hardcore scene is that we have limited sales to start with, now we have the added danger of having to contend with illegal download sites and p2p file sharing. We're all aware that 'some' amount of copying will take place, it always had, but if something isn't done about illegal sharing sites, it could take on an even bigger scale which would inevitably put the labels and writers of the music out of business.
The is why we've formed the organization 'PAID', open to anyone who address something should be done, not just the 'big players'. This isn't a case of taking everyone to court for having an illegal copy, but more of a deterrent. We have to safeguard out futures and our scene which we all love and want to continue to grow. If we continue to allow unscrupulous web sites to set up and charge money for illegal copies then no money will be coming into the scene and producers (established and newcomers) will consequently move onto something else.
There are many good, genuine people in the hardcore scene who religiously buy every CD, Vinyl or legal download out there, illegal file-sharing and downloading will directly affect them if the industry cases to generate money. No new records will be made, CD production will stop and ultimately Hardcore events will dry up. Non of us want this to happen, and hopefully 'PAID' will help prevent that.
Please, we ask you, don't illegally download hardcore.
For more information check: www.p-a-i-d.org
or alternatively, email us on [email protected]
PAID press release |
| Ravine |
Here's something i came across when i was reading PC Authority the other week...
I found it quite interesting even though i buy all my music legally from Beatport.com (God, imo and trackitdown are 2x more expensive than that place)
 |
| Underloop |
Ravine, the view in that letter is very blinkered to say the least. PAID isn't set up to protect the likes of Sony/BMG and certainly not the RIAA (in my opinion the RIAA is doing more to damage the music industry than the pirates themselves, but thats another story...)
I know plenty of artists in the scene and in other scenes, and all are suffering. These are independent artists, not Britney Spears, Madonna etc. I remember talking with a friend of mine round about this time last year who has been releasing records for about 15 years now if my maths is correct. He has had to start licensing tracks with no advance. This was unheard of a few years back. The fact is, in an industry where a record will probably shift 150 copies if your lucky, if you lose 20% of that to illegal downloads then its the difference between profit and loss.
Also remember that the artist is the last in the chain for getting paid. All label expenses usually come out of any record income first, so where the label *may* break even (I'm talking bigger labels here as smaller labels often have fairer terms - and not necessarily the Hardcore scene) the artist may not.
I'm in full support of this PAID organisation. Its about time Hardcore stood up united against those who rape so much from the scene but give nothing back in return |
| silver |
^^ hardcore aint hollywood :) |
| Ravine |
Yeah it was just an interesting read so i thought i'd post it =).
Of course i knew it was biased towards the mega mega stars and obviously the post didn't focus on the music industry but moreso on DVDs and movie bigshots.
I used to be one of them people who downloads their music etc etc but hey, once i got a job and access to a credit card, i'm clean.
Piracy was just a phase for me. |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
I'm in full support of this PAID organisation. Its about time Hardcore stood up united against those who rape so much from the scene but give nothing back in return
Same here, it's good to see something has been set up at last. If they want to make the difference they will really need to stick their necks out though... Most people think that illegally downloading things is a victimless crime.
|
| Chris Goldfinger |
I'll stick my hands up to downloading tunes!!!!
however i only download them to hear them, i've bought a few vinyl from various place
www.recess.nl
www.freaky.nl
www.chemical-records.co.uk
www.juno.co.uk
www.htfr.com
shop.happyhardcore.com
these are the stores i normally use, and over the years i've bought a few s*it tunes thanks to them only giving you a 1 min or so preview of the track
so what i do now is download the track and if i lkie the tune i go and buy it if not a delete the tune
i know some of you will take a dim view of this but if i hadn't actally heard the full tune alot of the time i simply wouldn't have bought the vinyl, i've heard so many samples on the above mentioned sites and thought the tune was crap or not that good but on hearing the full tune i've relised that they have just recorded the s*it bit of the tune (ie the breakdown or cheesey vocals, keeping in mind i normally play hardstyle)
basically my point is if i couldn't download the tunes although i'd still be buying vinyl i don't think it would be anywhere the amount that i buy at present therefore it would be losing the artist money!! |
| The Deviant |
You have got to think about who and why some of these people are going down the illegal download route. If you have a young teenager who doesn't have a credit card and they can't borrow their parents, and they want a tune that's not on the latest bonkers or whatever hardcore compilation, then illegal downloads are they only way they can get it. Im not saying it's ok to download illegally, but there are times when peolple who have money, have no way to pay for things.
|
| bulby_g |
If that was the case though why are they downloading full copies of albums like Bonkers that are available everywhere? It doesn't matter if they have no way to pay for things anyway it doesn't make it acceptable to steal... I have no money for a new car but that doesn't mean I have a right to own one and should just go out and steal it. At the end of the day you can't have everything you want, it's life tuff shit.
End of the day though most people who download stuff are either stingy, uneducated about the negative effects of illegal file sharing or too lazy to go to the shops.
If you like something you should support it. |
| danwilco |
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
If that was the case though why are they downloading full copies of albums like Bonkers that are available everywhere? It doesn't matter if they have no way to pay for things anyway it doesn't make it acceptable to steal... I have no money for a new car but that doesn't mean I have a right to own one and should just go out and steal it. At the end of the day you can't have everything you want, it's life tuff shit.
End of the day though most people who download stuff are either stingy, uneducated about the negative effects of illegal file sharing or too lazy to go to the shops.
If you like something you should support it.
Not neccesarily, where ever i go i can not find any bonkers cd's, i can not find hardcore, i found hardcore nation 1, at a 10 buck shop in sydney, its the only hardcore cd ive found, no matter how many cd shops i look in, nothing . . . it seriously sucks, nd being a teenager with no money, i cant buy off the net, it just doesnt work . . . I'd honestly prefer to buy my music, i seriously would . . .but atm i cant, its not the rite thing i know, i'll buy all the music bask once i get the money, i hate taking from sumthing i love so much . . . sounds cheesy but its true, lol . . . |
| The Deviant |
Bulby, You missed my point completely. There are people out there who can afford to buy the music, but they don't have a way to pay for it, ie: no credit card for an online transaction. BTW im talking about single track downloads.
It's not right for them to do it, but in their eyes, their action is justified.
I aggre with what you say here,
Quote Bulby: "End of the day though most people who download stuff are either stingy, uneducated about the negative effects of illegal file sharing or too lazy to go to the shops. "
But sometimes not everything is black or white.
The main problem isn't the internet and the way music is now brought to us, it's the majority of next generations complete lack of morals.
|
| bulby_g |
Yeah I did see your point I just think they should either get a bank account, pay someone else to use their credit card or miss out TBH. It's up to said producer how he wants to bring things to people and if this means it's not available to some people tuff tits to them really. Anyway I'm sure you can send a postal order to IMO and prob nu-energy too...
Everything isn't black and white because it's clouded with bad excuses justifying stealing.
"The main problem isn't the internet and the way music is now brought to us, it's the majority of next generations complete lack of morals".
Yeah I agree with that completely mate.
@ danwilco - Why exactly can't you buy off the internet? And if you haven't got the money for something you can't/shouldn't have it.
I know people say why would I care I'm not losing money or having anything stolen from me so why moan etc. Well... I want hardcore music to continue with professionally engineered releases etc and at the rate it's going it's looking less and less likely. |
| NAz |
I think at the end of the day it comes down to peoples collections too. Think about it, someone buys Bonkers 16 and then a CD comes out months later with a similar tracklist but about 10 songs are new, people will just download this new CD because they don't see much point in paying £10 - £15 for something similar they already have.
Also, the price of MP3 downloads is good but cost of vinyls is quite high. MP3 downloads are usually between £1 - £2, this price is good, fairly cheap. But vinyls are about £5 each excluding delivery, I know they cost a lot to produce but some labels are refusing to release as MP3s (raverbaby a good one) which makes people download from p2p, IRC, BT.
I personally think that all labels should look to maybe releasing on MP3 as this will make their songs more available and less waiting time for damn vinyl.
But then again if MP3 took over people would be complaining about vinyl dying out.
NAz |
| Samination |
haha, this is defo not a USH net thread. cause then there would be someone bashed, but then, compaired to USH, if I wanted to confess that I share hardcore, my post/username would be deleted/banned... (I hate it when MOds to that just to make the site look 'clean'...)
I wont lie, I'm a pirate, but my "activity" has gone down alot since I started to buy Hardcore (Vinyl/CD, and especially MP3/Digital) |
| Underloop |
Is it only me that has heard of Paypal then? Its a fantastic tool which anyone with a bank account can use, and is accepted in a number of stores including IMO, HappyHardcore.com, All-4-1 and more! In fact any store that doesn't have it can integrate it quite easily in most cases if they know people want it! Just ask them!
As for not being able to afford to buy on the net.... huh? I find physical shops about the same price. Yes its more when you start ordering internationally, but the big CDs and releases are available in the majority of countries, including UK, US, Mainland Europe, Ireland, Australia, Japan etc so you can order domestically. In fact, just as a check I just checked how much it would be to buy Bonkers 16 from IMO and have it shipped to Australia from the UK. The total price came to £13.75. I bought my copy from Woolworths the other day for £12.99 I think it was (about that price anyway)...... only 76p difference! Would be cheaper to other countries (Europe etc)
So, just goes to show if you look around you can get round the "must download as can't buy on net" myth ;-) |
| XtarsiA |
i find it EASYER and more convenient to BUY my music than download it lol
plus its nice having a HHC "shelf" :D |
| Samination |
buying Hardcore Junkieee 2 from Japan was a pain in the arse :P package and sending costs 130% more than the CD itself :P |
| Phobz |
Don't want to sound funny but I don't get it, I mean how will you go about bringing sites down, people etc who are doing this? Will it be like petitions or something? Confused lol I like the pic samus Mwhahaagh :P |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by Phobz:
Don't want to sound funny but I don't get it, I mean how will you go about bringing sites down, people etc who are doing this? Will it be like petitions or something? Confused lol I like the pic samus Mwhahaagh :P
I might be wrong but from what I can gather they're talking about the forum sites that you have to of posted on x amount of times to be able to download/upload tracks... I guess these would be very easy to get shut down for legal reasons unlike the big P2P networks. Maybe they're trying to shut down the big P2P ones as well but I can't see that being a very realistic target.
They're also trying to raise awareness about the damage caused by illegal downloads. |
| Samination |
about P2P
[edited]: Good luck trying to close down this, anyways... They could try to shut down the individual 'hubs' that are specified to share Hardcore.
Bit Tor-rent: Just as mentioned above, usually most Hardcore BT-trackers are private, or are released on bigger tracker site like [edited].
File Transfer throu Websites: I wonder if PAID have noticed [edited] about this, because THEY'RE alot larger than [edited] BT-tracker ever was, but they dont share any of the files, people use upload sites for that, but then [edited] never did share it, they just linked it (thats how Bit Tor-rent works bitches).
FTP: Generally people who download hardcore are to dumb to use this... :P
[Mod Edit: Site names edited - no point in making it too easy for people looking for places to download ;-)] |
| NeXuS |
the best weapon again filesharing is information. And by making creating 'PAID' is a step in the right direction.
informing and teaching people how filesharing can kill a scene they love so much is the best deterent you can have. |
| 1up |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
haha, this is defo not a USH net thread. cause then there would be someone bashed, but then, compaired to USH, if I wanted to confess that I share hardcore, my post/username would be deleted/banned... (I hate it when MOds to that just to make the site look 'clean'...)
I wont lie, I'm a pirate, but my "activity" has gone down alot since I started to buy Hardcore (Vinyl/CD, and especially MP3/Digital)
fessing up to d/l~ing good on ya!
me! well i used to d/l my music (mainly the crappy tranceness) and this activity has stopped when i developed taste for real music, thus realising music cannot be d/l'ed but bought<- that didnt make sense did it? 
ill be honest. il scab some music, but only from those who are just promoting themselves.
all else is bought legally, cd's and legal download.
hardcore is too hard to find on the net anyway! i cant find squat, so im resorted to going to the music store and ordering my music. all the good stuff is on cd's anyway, and it feels mighty fine, buying a copy of "hardcore heaven" and knowing the money goes to the good folks making the music themselves.
support PAID they deserve thier money! money lets them know we love them and that theyll continue to make beaut music for us! |
| Chris Deeside |
things like this do me tits in
they say DONT DOWNLOAD VINYL RIPS BLAH BLAH
but what about the people without vinyl decks who download??? they wouldnt be buyin the tune anyway so stop ****in moanin
an only recently av loads of "legal mp3" places popped up
wish they'd jus shut the **** up an stick there dummys back in. |
| Chris Deeside |
an also
i bet some producers dont pay the royalties on samples/pellas theyve used, unless there original obv
there tryin to eradicate piracy, which isnt gona happen... there jus goin round in big circles |
| XtarsiA |
as for sampleing, i personally dont think its really that bad.
illigitimate remixes are another thing, but sampleing, the final tracks are sooo different from what was sampled i dont think copy rights should be held as tight as they are.
just restricting creativity.
as for shutting down BT sites, well, its not hard to find them... even the BT search engines, will give u the tracker addresses very very quickly. |
| Samination |
in most cases, like most of those who go to HTID propably dont know what Vinyl really is :P
anywyas, like you said Chris.
The piss down the filesharing and scream KEEP VINYL ALIVE.. but some of them dont have a deck, but still thinks this way |
| XenatR |
ive downloaded illegal music.. but thats what got me into the scene
without illegal mp3 (p2p), i wouldnt know/have heard uk hardcore, and now i have, and am into it, i will buy the cds.. i mean, just today i spent £41.97 on 3 cds @ hmv..
i think there is a happy medium. illegal mp3 downloading CAN be beneficial (as in my example), just aslong as the person realises that in doing so, he can destroy the scene he 'loves' |
| Underloop |
You can get a cheap ass record player for about £40 (non DJ oriented naturally, but of course the people downloading the mp3s aren't going to play them out of course are they ;-) ).
Using that argument I might as well not have bothered buying a hi-fi or decks and then I could morally download my tunes and save myself a few hundred smackeroonies before I even started not paying for my tunes.
Whilst you do have a valid argument about sampling, there is an equally valid argument in its defence - the money created from the royalties decided upon in the case of the smaller releases is so small that its often not worth the hassle of sorting it out (from either side). Note, I am only talking about smaller releases here. Alot of the larger releases actually get samples cleared, or else more often than not have the vocals resung in order to reduce royalties paid.
Illegal sampling has also created some of the most fantastic releases in history over the past 20 years or so. Without it hip hop wouldn't have happened, the rave scene in general wouldn't be around. House and Garage would be totally different, as would breaks. Imagine a world without the Amen break! Illegal sampling has shaped the music we listen to today, and without it we wouldn't be here discussing this issue, we'd all be at home listening to the Spice Girls. How has piracy made the music industry a better place? Has it made the music better? Has it brought more people into clubs - judging by the figures round my area thats a definite no! Its exposed a few lesser known groups, but they have mostly been the ones offering free downloads rather than bigger artists being downloaded illegally.
Its not so much that P2P needs to be banished from the face of the earth, but more that it needs to be looked at and needs to evolve into a format where the damaging aspects are erradicated and artists (note I say artists, not labels!) can use it to their advantage, and the advantage of the industry in general. |
| Chris Deeside |
if the only way u heard of hardcore was the net
then your not true hardcore |
| Kawahara |
quote:
Originally posted by XenatR:
i think there is a happy medium. illegal mp3 downloading CAN be beneficial (as in my example), just aslong as the person realises that in doing so, he can destroy the scene he 'loves'
I agree |
| XenatR |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Deeside:
if the only way u heard of hardcore was the net
then your not true hardcore
oh dear |
| jenks |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Deeside:
if the only way u heard of hardcore was the net
then your not true hardcore
What a load of bollocks, what is he then, fake hardcore?
Not everyone has the friends to hear of hardcore through word of mouth or CD's and not everyone lives in areas where they are likely to pick up a flyer, does this mean they arn't allowed to be 'hardcore'
Everyone who is into the music has to hear of it somewhere and these days the internet is probably as good a place as any.
Sorry if I come across as a **** but hardcore 'elite-ists' piss me off... |
| Chris Deeside |
i blame clubland extreme hardcore |
| Uproar |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Deeside:
There's no need to take the piss out of the Welsh members.   |
| XenatR |
quote:
Originally posted by Uproar:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Deeside:
img
There's no need to take the piss out of the Welsh members.
:O
|
| XtarsiA |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Deeside:
if the only way u heard of hardcore was the net
then your not true hardcore
DUDE
NOOOOO!
doesent matter how u heard of it!
just how much u love it! |
| silver |
After posting this news a few major hardcore labels contacted me (i.e the biggest ones in the scene), one person in particular is fedup, they will stop hardcore and stop their label solely based on piracy and the arguments people use to justify piracy. They are all fedup, all of them, they are all pissed off, I have never seen artists like this before.
Vinyl sales don't break even 90% of the time, legal download are around 100 download for a good release and 30 for an average release, which is not enough money to cover doing music fulltime. I'm not trying to scare people here, this is what is happening right now, people are leaving hardcore right now because of the attitude of people and downloading.
To be honest I am quite concerned as a fan of hardcore. |
| Samination |
really... if so, how come Sparky, Cube::Hard and CDJay give out tracks for free?
they're about the only label managers (atleast CDJay is) that have ever dared to SPEAK in a PAID thread, especially after they started it on USH.net.
Let them register and let them speak for themselfs... and Piracy really cant be the largest problem (i'd rather blame Clublands CD's because they brought along the house/trance people who dont buy stuff) |
| silver |
What Sparky, Cube::Hard and CDJay do with their own tracks is their own business. I'm just reporting the facts. Just wait a little longer, see what happens, I'm just letting you know all the artists are pissed off and fedup. |
| bulby_g |
"really... if so, how come Sparky, Cube::Hard and CDJay give out tracks for free?"
They may have given out some tracks for free but as you will know if you've read the Ush thread properly Sparky and CDJay have both been speaking their disgust about Piracy in the hardcore scene.
they're about the only label managers (atleast CDJay is) that have ever dared to SPEAK in a PAID thread, especially after they started it on USH.net.
Not everyone posts on internet forums! Besides people running the bigger labels would have very little time to spare to have petty little arguments with people who think they can justify stealing from them.
Let them register and let them speak for themselves... and Piracy really cant be the largest problem
See above. Sure Piracy isn't the only problem but it's definitely one of the problems... You could say blad de bla bla it's the "crap" releases, but what makes you think a "good" release wouldn't get shared as much or even more?
i'd rather blame Clublands CD's because they brought along the house/trance people who dont buy stuff
I'd like to know how you can justify that when it's the best selling hardcore album since the revival. An album that gets new people into the scene can only boost sales surely? Sure it's a pretty bad compilation in my opinion and obviously yours too but you can hardly blame it for causing piracy.
|
| Chris Goldfinger |
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
i'd rather blame Clublands CD's because they brought along the house/trance people who dont buy stuff
I'd like to know how you can justify that when it's the best selling hardcore album since the revival. An album that gets new people into the scene can only boost sales surely? Sure it's a pretty bad compilation in my opinion and obviously yours too but you can hardly blame it for causing piracy.
Exactly mate the CD is crap but surley it has increased sales and revenue for all the artists involved
|
| Underloop |
I know enough house and trance heads to know that stereotyping them as "not buying stuff" types is totally wrong. Its like saying all ravers are druggies, all moshers are devil worshippers etc etc. Of the house and trance fans I know, they love their scene as much as we love ours, and they ALWAYS buy their stuff (except the chosen few who get their promos sent for free heh).
If you did a poll I reckon you would find as many trance heads download as do ravers. The majority of downloaders are the younger generations. More often than not they haven't settled in one particular scene yet, they tend to follow the majority - which at the moment is pointing more towards Hardcore (dare I say it?) and away from over publicised house and trance (at least for the younger generations).
Which brings me round to thinking about ways that instead of targeting P2P and blowing it off the face of the planet, how can P2P be used to an advantage, and turned round from the grab and run scenario that it currently is, into some sort of happy medium - aiming it at the younger crowd. It isn't going to go away, copying has gone on since the days of cassette recorders, its just easier these days. Instead of bickering about how bad piracy is (or how good some of you seem to be saying :-S ) how about some ideas about what can be done about it.
Obvious choices are to lower prices, but to my mind this won't do jack. Prices are already low enough. The format argument is a nonsense, and more and more labels are doing digital downloads legally. Do you think CDJay and Sparky have a good idea in offering free downloads?
Is it a better idea to take a harder stance against piracy. Hollywood seems to like the idea of poisoning *******s for films so that after 24 hours of download you end u with a corrupt file - thats one option (at least for *******s). Naming and shaming is another, but do people care? Would they care if they got an email from Scott Brown calling them an anchor for downloading? (shock tactics).
Any more ideas? |
| The Deviant |
We all know that piracy is wrong and most of us here choose to buy our music in whatever medium suits us best, but sharing music will happen and to a small extent it's only fair that we do. Anyone remember dubbing tapes from school friends, or the last time you borrowed a CD and thought you would rip a few tracks. I think in situations like that, it is fair. But thats not what were talking about right?
This blatent uploading to the net for all to download is just wrong. I would like to hear what PAID are actually going to do about this, and see if that would lead to a more unified discussion of how it can be stoped, and it really does need to be stoped!
If you take a look in the Music production & Gear talk forum you'll see a post from VAGABOND offering his production skills for hire, and this is showing that music sales can't be great for him to need extra work. I would hate to see an artist like him have to give up music full time because he couldn't make it pay.
I have chosen not to download music purley because of audio quality. Does anyone else think that mp3 is a step back, 192khz is just taking the piss. In this age of high speed DSL we should be able to download CD quality tracks. I don't think music downloads are good value for money, I'll use a store bought single an an example: A single may contain three or four tracks, obviously at CD quality and I'd get a phisical CD to stick on my shelf and it would cost me around £3.50. If I download two tacks for the same price I get alot less. The most important being lower quality audio, and then there's the possibility of loosing those if they don't make it into the latest harddisk backup. MP3 downloads are not for me right now, and what I have said above does not mean that I download music ilegally, It's my reason for buying it on CD. |
| Chris B |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Goldfinger:
I'll stick my hands up to downloading tunes!!!!
however i only download them to hear them, i've bought a few vinyl from various place
www.recess.nl
www.freaky.nl
www.chemical-records.co.uk
www.juno.co.uk
www.htfr.com
www.imorecords.com
these are the stores i normally use, and over the years i've bought a few s*it tunes thanks to them only giving you a 1 min or so preview of the track
so what i do now is download the track and if i lkie the tune i go and buy it if not a delete the tune
i know some of you will take a dim view of this but if i hadn't actally heard the full tune alot of the time i simply wouldn't have bought the vinyl, i've heard so many samples on the above mentioned sites and thought the tune was crap or not that good but on hearing the full tune i've relised that they have just recorded the s*it bit of the tune (ie the breakdown or cheesey vocals, keeping in mind i normally play hardstyle)
basically my point is if i couldn't download the tunes although i'd still be buying vinyl i don't think it would be anywhere the amount that i buy at present therefore it would be losing the artist money!!
I'm pretty similar i like to no what i'm buying, people send me the odd tune over msn also like bits of itaian and scouse for the pc.
At the moment i dont really "support" hardcore that much tbh, moved into a flat not long ago and aint had the time/money to rave every other week anymore or buy as many vinyl. Over the years the amount i've spent on tickets must be madness though.
And with vinyl i didnt stop buyin uk hardcore cos of downloads or cdjays (dont have one), it's because i dont like the sound anymore. It changed as things do and now isnt what i like at all, and for all the new people getting into hardcore i no a lot of people who used to plough a lot of money into vinyl have now gone off it now.
Still buy a couple bits from all-4-1 cos it's music i like, and odd bit of hardcore techno/speedcore from abroad.
But mainly now i like old tunes so even when i buy vinyl no money goes to supporting artists.
I just buy what i like best with what i can afford, if people make tunes i like they'll get my money. |
| Chris Goldfinger |
@ the deviant
about the 192Kbps, I know of plenty of sites that are for the nzb files for usenet and the majority of albums on it are lossless (400mb for 1 disc) so i don't see the quality as a deterent as i'm quite sure no one would be able to tell the difference between that and an original copy.
@ underloop
I totally agree with what you said about trance and house heads, i own so much more house and trance vinyls than hardcore. Most of the people i know either play house, trance or techno (very little people in my area listen to hardcore) and the lot of them are as bad as me when it comes to spend our hard earned cash on records ie we blow our wages on our addiction quite often
Also discussed in this thread is the option of closing down p2p networks, imo you would have to be nieve if you honestly believe this is a viable option. If one got took down how long do you think it would be before another poped up.
Its all down to supply and demand, as long as theres demand for p2p there will alwats be a choice of them available and there ain't nothing PAID or the RIAA is going to be able to do about it |
| Chris Deeside |
let me guess..the 1 dj inparticular whos kickin off is... scott brown???
he seems a bit of an arrogant twat anyway so it doesent suprise me... its not just hardcore where vinyl sales are fallin..its all over different genres aswell. its to do with cd decks an up to now there wernt anywere ya cud buy cd's or download legal mp3s , theyve only recently popped up. cd's r slowly overtakin vinyl. |
| barkley |
Does anyone know if the profit for a hardcore artist has going down in the last few years? Do they sell less vinyl? Or is this something that have been for many years?
I don´t think the piracy is the biggest problem here. Maybe it will be a few more sales of leagal hardcore tunes if there was no piracy but not that much.
But the labels can´t think that people that´s not are djs are going to buy vinyls of single tunes. Myself don´t find it that funny to lissten to single tunes with intro and outro.
Does cds like Bonkers and Hardcore Heaven series gives much money to the artists? I can think that they will sell much more then single tunes. Why don´t the labels realese more of this with their tunes on? Like Scott Brown with his Hardwired and 10 years of hardcore. I think that is a great idea and more will buy this.
I´m not saying to stop doing vinyls. This is a great was for the labels to get their tunes out. Many ppl are hearing their favorit tune for the first times at raves.
I also think that all labels should get their tunes out on mp3. Cd players are raising in sales and it´s the future. |
| bulby_g |
^^^ Obviously no one knows £profit figures but yes the labels are selling less records and struggling to keep afloat. There is (as of yet) no evidence to say that decent money can be made from MP3 downloads of hardcore music. If you read the topic you'll see that an average hardcore MP3 sells 30 odd, that's what £45 hardly worth the time that a producer has to put in at the studio to get a release out is it? Yes compilations make far more money than single releases, label compilations are a good way to go I guess... Wont solve the problem of how to get out single releases though.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Deeside:
its to do with cd decks an up to now there wernt anywere ya cud buy cd's or download legal mp3s , theyve only recently popped up. cd's r slowly overtakin vinyl.
Would be a sound argument if sales of legal MP3's were decent... There isn't really many unmixed CD's out there so I don't think you could put it down to that TBH. It may well be the CDJ that is killing off vinyl sales but this isn't the problem, the problem is no money is being made anywhere because these people are using illegal downloads. The death of vinyl is inevitable but what's going to happen when it dies and there is no money to be made from mp3 sales? No one will be able to put out singles so there will be no unmixed "commercial release" music to play for any smaller DJ's. Now some chin strokers may like this idea but for those that like any big label inc. things like RBC, EVO, EP, QUOSH, Nu-Energy, TNC etc and even smaller labels that offer something a bit different like Bedlam and RFU tis very bad news indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B:
And with vinyl i didnt stop buyin uk hardcore cos of downloads or cdjays (dont have one), it's because i dont like the sound anymore. It changed as things do and now isnt what i like at all, and for all the new people getting into hardcore i no a lot of people who used to plough a lot of money into vinyl have now gone off it now.
That's fair enough mate why buy something that you don't like there's no point... However I do think for all the people that have stopped listening to hardcore twice as many have started so the drop in sales is not justified. I have nothing against people downloading and buying what they like, can't see that as a problem.
I think it would help if the top guys started using vinyl decks again as allot of the bedroom DJ's like to follow what they do. |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by The Deviant:
I have chosen not to download music purley because of audio quality. Does anyone else think that mp3 is a step back, 192khz is just taking the piss.
Only one actually that sells Wave files (closest to, if not CD-quality for Windows systems) are Track It Down, but not many of the hardcore labels that release tracks there are doing it...
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
Let them register and let them speak for themselves... and Piracy really cant be the largest problem
See above. Sure Piracy isn't the only problem but it's definitely one of the problems... You could say blad de bla bla it's the crap releases, but what makes you think a good release wouldn't get shared as much or even more?
If the release is crap? why would I even download it illegally? that's the only thing I'm going against you on your reply to my post.
Nothing from my post earlier are facts, only what I think and have noticed, on both hardcore chatrooms, aswell as on places where you can get hardcore illegally |
| Chris B |
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B:
And with vinyl i didnt stop buyin uk hardcore cos of downloads or cdjays (dont have one), it's because i dont like the sound anymore. It changed as things do and now isnt what i like at all, and for all the new people getting into hardcore i no a lot of people who used to plough a lot of money into vinyl have now gone off it now.
However I do think for all the people that have stopped listening to hardcore twice as many have started so the drop in sales is not justified.
Aye illegal downloads is definitely a big part of why sales have dropped, is pretty obvious that most people wont pay for something they can get for free.
And your right about loadsa people getting into hardcore, theres defo been more raves the last year or two and people into it.
But if it's cd's they can get for free most arent gonna pay for it, some will put money into going to raves and some will buy cd's but most will get a copy off there mate or download it.
The vinyl things a big part of killing the money imo, loadsa people who used to dj uk hardcore dont anymore (like myself). And most people starting will now buy cd-jays and get all there tunes for free.
This doesnt happen the same for other styles, like old school, gabber, dnb and that it's all still vinyl.
My mates wee brothers only 15 jus got his first set of decks and is still vinyl, he's into drum n bass and cd decks are looked down on with them.
I'm not anti cd-jay but i think thats been a big part in sales dropping, it's not as easy to make illegal vinyls and it only gets done to old tunes that people pay daft prices for.
Is a bad situation for people i understand that, there right to try and sort it out and try and change whatever they can.
But is a fact that most people wont buy things they can easily get for free. |
| bulby_g |
Yeah very true mate. This is why I think the big DJ's mixing vinyl would help no end. People see that they use CDJ's so that's what they buy. I do think that a better solution needs sorting though cus much as I hate to say it (prob cus I have thousands of pouns worth of vinyl) vinyl is dated and will have to go in the end.
Surely files can be encrypted so they can't be copied like they do with PC games?
@ Samination Yeah sorry I didn't put that across very clearly. I meant "crap" as in the people who always moan about UK hardcore wont like it cus they don't like the new sound. The fact is "crap" tunes are more popular.
"Nothing from that post are facts, only what I think and have noticed, on both hardcore chatrooms, aswell as on places where you can get hardcore illegally"
Fair enough. Places that promote illegal downloading are bound to be pro illegal downloads though aren't they ;). |
| barkley |
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
^^^ Obviously no one knows £profit figures but yes the labels are selling less records and struggling to keep afloat. There is (as of yet) no evidence to say that decent money can be made from MP3 downloads of hardcore music. If you read the topic you'll see that an average hardcore MP3 sells 30 odd, that's what £45 hardly worth the time that a producer has to put in at the studio to get a release out is it? Yes compilations make far more money than single releases, label compilations are a good way to go I guess... Wont solve the problem of how to get out single releases though.
The vinyl realese is going to go down however the labels like it or not. They must start thinking diffrent.
I don´t think the artist could live on doing just single hardcore tunes. Hardcore is a small genre with not that much djs playing it.
And I really hope it´s not djs that are downloading vinylripps and playing it out. Surely would sound odd to hear vinylcracks from a cdj.
To live on doing hardcore I think you must sell vinyls, mp3 and mixes on cds.
And also get them easy to get. The big cds like bonkers must get out in stores just not on internet. |
| Underloop |
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
Surely files can be encrypted so they can't be copied like they do with PC games?
Music will be copied as long as you can drag a lead out from the output of your soundcard into the input of the soundcard - you can't encrypt audio, only data unfortunately - have a look round P2P sites/systems and you will see alot of tunes ripped from vinyl and not just CD releases and legally downloaded MP3s. |
| The Deviant |
The thing is though, how many of you want to be stuck with encrypted music files, I don't. I like having the freedom to copy music, Such as making backups and a CD for the car. |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
Music will be copied as long as you can drag a lead out from the output of your soundcard into the input of the soundcard - you can't encrypt audio, only data unfortunately - have a look round P2P sites/systems and you will see alot of tunes ripped from vinyl and not just CD releases and legally downloaded MP3s.
Ah yeah of course.
quote:
Originally posted by The Deviant:
The thing is though, how many of you want to be stuck with encrypted music files, I don't. I like having the freedom to copy music, Such as making backups and a CD for the car.
Wouldn't bother me TBH I can never be arsed to back up my CD's and my copy for my car is my only copy as I don't have a cd player in my room :) Can see how it'd be a problem for some I guess though yeah.
quote:
Originally posted by barkley:
The vinyl realese is going to go down however the labels like it or not. They must start thinking diffrent.
I don´t think the artist could live on doing just single hardcore tunes. Hardcore is a small genre with not that much djs playing it.
And I really hope it´s not djs that are downloading vinylripps and playing it out. Surely would sound odd to hear vinylcracks from a cdj.
To live on doing hardcore I think you must sell vinyls, mp3 and mixes on cds.
And also get them easy to get. The big cds like bonkers must get out in stores just not on internet.
People definitely do play ripped hardcore tunes out live at events and on the web I can tell you that for sure. While I agree with you in part... if they're making a loss from vinyl sales why sell them? It's not even worth putting out an MP3 so why sell them? If things don't improve it's likely that single releases will stop and it will all be albums. Not good for the small time or bedroom DJ ey. |
| 1up |
speaking of encrypted music i think i may have a solution! or part of the solution.
if vinyls are loosing sales then the music industry might have to make a new music medium for the recordings of their work.
something more advanced than the typical cd. something that will play but the music cant be "stolen".
a remake of the vinyl? i dont know exactly. maybe vinyl needs to become popular again. maybe the turntables need to be redeveloped for the new demanding market. maybe record players need to be more simpler and cheaper so the market can actually afford to buy and use one.
really, this whole concept is hard to think up, but if we were to create a new medium, things just might change abit. |
| Chris B |
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
I do think that a better solution needs sorting though cus much as I hate to say it (prob cus I have thousands of pouns worth of vinyl) vinyl is dated and will have to go in the end.
Aye i do agree but it wont be for a while, not sure about uk hardcore but in some of the styles i said above it's a culture thing and is still a few years before i can see vinyl stopping in them.
Was chatting to someone about this last night actually and is seems true that it's the big dj's people are following.
In the north east none play with cd-jays and the up n comings all still want vinyl, same as down here for drum n bass basically.
But your right that isnt gonna solve things permanently and has already gone too far, cant hold back on technology things always change.
I'm not gonna pretend i no what im talking about with the lables and that, but i just dont see much changing with people downloading.
Is a good thing if some people start to buy there stuff though so they've gotta try, just i'm not that confident when it's so easy to get for free |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B:
it wont be for a while, not sure about uk hardcore but in some of the styles i said above it's a culture thing and is still a few years before i can see vinyl stopping in them.
Yeah I agree, other genres (and sub-genres of hardcore even) definitely have a long way to go before vinyl dies.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris B:
Is a good thing if some people start to buy there stuff though so they've gotta try, just i'm not that confident when it's so easy to get for free
Nah not gonna be easy at all.
Maybe more tracks like the cilit bang one will come out paid for by the company they're sampling ;) Advertunes could be the way forward for music!
|
| Orbit1 |
The fact is that all labels have suffered losses when it comes to moving vinyl units. I know we can't always pin it on piracy, but I believe that it has a lot to do with it.
The problem is the attitude of the people, if people didn't freeload and demand to get their music hassle-free and money free, then we wouldn't be in this mess.
As far as I'm concerned its the same as the drug problem - demand will always dictate supply. Because less people can be bothered to go to great lengths to get the songs they like, less units are sold. People are being more arrogant now saying - if you don't give me the music I want my way, then I'll pirate it. Thats not right at all.
What happened to the good old days of saving up and buying a cheap turntable just to listen to the tunes? |
| barkley |
quote:
Originally posted by Orbit1:
What happened to the good old days of saving up and buying a cheap turntable just to listen to the tunes?
What happends to the time when the whole family was sitting around their radio and listening to the worldcup?
Technology are moving forward...
|
| slik_stylez |
Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Nirvana put a stop to Napster when it was free? Napster was down for ages and then it suddenly came back and you had to pay to download music.
Couldn't enough of us (with enough money?) do something like that?
Slik |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by 1up:
speaking of encrypted music i think i may have a solution! or part of the solution.
if vinyls are loosing sales then the music industry might have to make a new music medium for the recordings of their work.
something more advanced than the typical cd. something that will play but the music cant be "stolen".
a remake of the vinyl? i dont know exactly. maybe vinyl needs to become popular again. maybe the turntables need to be redeveloped for the new demanding market. maybe record players need to be more simpler and cheaper so the market can actually afford to buy and use one.
really, this whole concept is hard to think up, but if we were to create a new medium, things just might change abit.
as Underloop said, how would that help? you'd just jack that 'new' machine to an stereo jack and record?
Slik, since your words are blurred (*****) out, did you mean Nap-ster? Curt Cobain died before P2P started to piss Labels off, so no, Nirvana didnt do anything, but Metallica UTTERLY hated Nap-ster (I think most of you guys have seen all those Metallica VS Nap-ster flash movies ;) ) |
| slik_stylez |
Ah yes, it was Metallica...my bad...
How did they go about shutting it down, if they did? |
| Chris Goldfinger |
they maybe shut nap-ster down but the knowledge i have of certain p2p's is limited but i'm led to believe such programs as ka-zaa there is no central server and home pc's are picked at random when connecting therefore the servers are always changing, imo if that is right theres no way there going to stop it
another example is e-mule, i have used this occasionally over the space of a few years and as anyone that uses this will tell you once one of the servers goes down there two new one ready to take it place.
Bit torr-ent sites go down constantly but again thers always more ready to pop up as soon as that happens
then theres usenet imo that ain't ever going to get shut down, i don't even think it would be possible
say they some how managed to shut down all the above then you still have FTP's. It would be impossible to stop people from using these!!
basically downloading music, films, games or whatever is never going to stop!!!!
Although i personnal buy vinyl (and loads of it) if i wasn't a dj if i'm honest i probably wouldn't pay for my tunes either. Why spend £15 on a album when i can get it for nothing, it would also be a lot quicker to d/l than actually buy it, an example of this would be bonkers 16 i could d/l this in 10 mins max where as for me to go to the shop and buy it it would take me more than 10 mins to get there.
Also another point on this subject that no one else has mention....
Record sales are maybe poor and going to get worse and everyone keeps going on about those producers stopping making music, but has no one stopped to think how much each of these producers are making from other sources.
Scott Brown for example how many dj set is he booked for each year? how much do you think he get paid for each one? if he was to stop producing he wouldn't be in such demand, so therefore in that sense if he stops producing hes going to lose some serious money
this is just my opinon but i feel theres a few valid points there |
| Underloop |
It was pretty much the RIAA putting legal pressure on the Napster owners. Eventually they cut a deal. |
| Orbit1 |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Goldfinger:
Although i personnal buy vinyl (and loads of it) if i wasn't a dj if i'm honest i probably wouldn't pay for my tunes either. Why spend £15 on a album when i can get it for nothing, it would also be a lot quicker to d/l than actually buy it, an example of this would be bonkers 16 i could d/l this in 10 mins max where as for me to go to the shop and buy it it would take me more than 10 mins to get there.
Thats the kind of attitude that I mean. Because people can't be bothered any more, vinyl sells less. Because vinyl sells less, people release less. Then the people who run record labels just don't know what to do.
If the mp3 sales were really up there competing with the vinyl sales then I'm sure that labels would convert over, but the fact is that sales everywhere are down, with the exception of big cd compilations. |
| fireflys |
Alright, listen guys. Let me explain how my generation views piracy, since a lot of you seem to be scratching your heads and wondering where the money went.
Music is not a product. Music has never been a product. Before recorded media, musicians made money from performances, or not at all. The record is your product, not the data it contains. Now there is no record - only data.
There are two types of people still buying music; those who want the media itself, and those who are making a donation. Following this logic, there are three ways to increase sales: Improve the value of the media itself, decrease the cost, or convince more people of the need to donate.
But certain misguided people think they can increase sales by making the product worse. DRM'd audio is never going to have the same value as the same data in an unrestricted format that is available for free just about anywhere. This cuts out all of group 1 (buyers who want the media), and some donators who are trying to be honest yet keep getting screwed by proprietary formats that don't work half the time.
Music exists only in time, not in space. Sorry folks. In a world where information is freely and instantly exchanged, not everyone can make a living peddling information. The world is moving on without you, and we're not looking back.
By the way, I am a software developer (another industry based upon easily-pirated intangibles). I sell my time and my services, not the resulting bytes. I'm also a hobbyist producer.
Very few people can make money buying music - people do it for the enjoyment it brings them. Maybe it's time for artists to do the same...again. |
| Orbit1 |
^^^ Doesn't help the problem.
Record units aren't selling and labels are closing, that a problem. The people that run those labels need the income from those labels to survive, thats their food money.
Whats the solution? Mp3s are not selling anywhere near as many units as vinyl used to, so thats not the answer.
If you have a product regardless of what it is, and you depend on the sale of that product to get money to live, what are you going to do? |
| bulby_g |
@ fireflys
Sorry don't agree with that. The track belongs to the producer who worked for days making it, whatever format it's in.
quote:
Taken from the dictionary:
PRODUCT
Something produced by human or mechanical effort or by a natural process.
The dictionary disproves your point I'd say.
If there were no full time producers the quality and amount of material would slow no end! Most bedroom producers can't afford to put in the time or get the cash to buy all the best studio equipment.
|
| bulby_g |
Taken from USH.NET for those that wanted to hear from a big label being affected.
quote:
Originally posted by BRISK[quote]
This is a duplicate post made on www.4ravers.com, a US based website who actively support illegal downloads. This is the original post made in the event that the original is modified in anyway:
I have been compelled to comment on this subject after it was brought
to my attention on my recent visit to America. I write with mixed
emotions; mainly disbelief at such small minded behavior at immature
and ignorant views.
Firstly, I would like to point out that at no time have I authorized
infringement of mine or any of my colleagues work; just because I
have not previously protested it does not imply my consent. I do not
have time to trawl the internet and chat forums from every country to
see whether people are offering my music for free, particularly in
the last couple of years I have had to work harder to try to combat
the lost revenue from record and album sales caused by illegal
downloads. This is my career, the very job that pays my bills and
feeds me and my family, as it does for the artists for whom I am
responsible, that are signed to my label and to whom I am legally
bound protect their work.
What many people fail to recognize is that it costs us to write music
both in monetary terms and time, just as anyone who works in a
garage, a restaurant etc. expects to get paid for the time the expend
whilst doing their job, it is not unfair that we get paid for our work.
To try to be philosophical about what is morally right or wrong, I am
afraid is not your place to make a decision about, the work is mine
and my colleagues and that decision can only be made by us, and all
of us see it as theft. We all work in this industry to try to give
you enjoyment at the weekends and to give you the pleasure that we
used to get from music when we were ravers, we often put up free
promotional live mixes and although many are grateful for this,
others take it for granted and want more.
The fact that the album has been purchased and then uploaded does not
make it right, it is illegal to copy work and distribute it, this
prevents others buying it and contrary to certain beliefs the income
from album sales and record sales is imperative, we have already
suffered a 90% drop in vinyl sales. To hear comments about wanting
to destroy the industry I find disgusting, this is nothing but
bitter, bitchy and immature behavior. If this continues at such a
rate it is unlikely that many of he underground dance genres such as
Hardcore will even exist in 1 or 2 years time, if that. If you truly
do want to kill the industry then your goal will be achieved.
There IS money being lost, unless you are doing this as a career and
you have worked in the industry you are not really in a position to
comment. Exposure is not in the question, in fact I would rather not
have the 'exposure' as it serves me no purpose whatsoever. I have been
DJing and producing for 20 years and have managed to get exposure
without someone blatantly and publicly raping my copyright. Although
you start out as a kid doing it for the love of it, you can no longer
can live with your parents etc, you grow up and live in the real
world with costs that have to be covered to be able to continue
writing music. It seems many of you think you can get through life
just purely on love of music, the harsh reality is, is this is not
the case. I am not sure if many of you are just young or you live a
very sheltered life, but the comments are very small minded and in
many cases arrogant. Producers and labels need a constant cash flow
in order to keep equipment up to date, to press and manufacture
products and as I mentioned before to be able to live and support
their families.
Psilo, with regards to the legal comments, my girlfriend is a music
lawyer specializing in the area of illegal downloads. The fact is
you are breaking the law not under file sharing but unlawfully
copying and distributing a copyright without permission. Needless to
say, I will be informing the relevant bodies over here. Whether
your mind can except it or not, it is killing the industry, and to
say that you support hardcore is bollocks to put it bluntly. All you
will seek to do is to get the site shut down and any other site that
you post any links on, which only results in you pissing everyone
off. If this is your goal, you really do have some deep seated
emotional issues that you need to resolve. Just because you have
spent money on music equipment, CDs etc it DOES NOT give you the
right to steal my work and my income that I have spent time and money
on creating. No matter what you say or how you try to justify it,
you are simply wrong a view that is supported by every artist and the
law. Perhaps your goal is actually just to try to antagonize people
and to get a response as many people seem to do in this day and age
on internet chat forums, if that is the case that is very sad.
Another common reason for people being so belligerent is often
jealousy, again this is very childish as you can do anything if you
put your mind to it and you want it badly enough, but this is not the
way to go about it. I guess even if the law does not reprimand you,
karma will and I am sure you will live a very difficult and bitter
existence.
For those of you who are actively supporting the scene, and
understand the struggle we face, in trying to continue doing what we
do, to be able to give you Hardcore; I wish to thank you from the
bottom of my heart and on the behalf of all my colleagues, you are
the reason that we love our job and want to do it for as long as
possible.
I'm sure many of you have got some smart arsed comments to make to
try to be funny or whatever, but save it for someone who cares. I
have purely posted a response so that those who wish to see the other
side of the argument, can do.
In closing, if we cannot afford to make music you will have nothing
to download anyway.
Brisk
|
| Jax |
"it is going to kill hardcore"
well if its already been stated that they dont make any money from sales why isnt it already dead? all thats going to happen, at worst, is they will have to release on cd's like psy trance |
| Orbit1 |
^^^ Close but no cigar. I think while Cd albums are making sales, and there are djs with those songs on promo that the general public doesn't have, the scene will still have some sort of life. |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by DJ_JaXoN:
"it is going to kill hardcore"
well if its already been stated that they dont make any money from sales why isnt it already dead? all thats going to happen, at worst, is they will have to release on cd's like psy trance
Because they want to keep it alive! The general impression you get is that the bigger labels are above breaking even at the mo but if things continue to get worse they wont continue to release. There not going to bother releasing singles on vinyl or cd's if there is no point in doing so, where's the sense in that? Sure CD's cost less but you can predict what the sales would be like from the MP3 ones so...
Compilation albums don't bring as much cash to artists as you'd like to think, most of it goes to Resist, MOS etc. Sure the scene may stay afloat in some form or another because of comps, bedroom producers and events but it will be a shell of what it was and you can say goodbye to most bedroom dj's and small events.
Basically it's the people who make the tunes that are telling they're going to stop if things don't improve so you all think they're lying or what? Most of them like other types of dance music even if they like hardcore more so end of the day they'll probably have to pack up and start to make something that has a bit more money in it (until that collapses because of piracy!).
|
| Underloop |
The way I see it at the moment is that the only money is in performance. As Fireflys puts it in his (slightly flawed) argument, the money used to come from performance, and so it shall go back to performance. The way things are going right now this is what will happen. All labels will rely on the RaverBaby business model where their money comes from getting gigs, and they get gigs from having tunes that nobody else has (because they take so long to release them - if they release them at all). This has made the RBC the most sought after DJs in the scene, and also those with (probably) the highest income.
If the whole scene was like that, and no records got released as that was the only way that the label owners could keep their career (remember to these artists it is their career not just a part time job) is to stop releasing records and just use them to play out themselves as a performance. Kind of leaves the smaller DJs in the **** doesn't it! And so the scene evolves until it is made up purely of the Pete Tong's and Tiesto's of the Hardcore world. At least it would stop piracy as there would be nothing left to pirate. |
| Chris Goldfinger |
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
If the whole scene was like that, and no records got released as that was the only way that the label owners could keep their career (remember to these artists it is their career not just a part time job) is to stop releasing records and just use them to play out themselves as a performance. Kind of leaves the smaller DJs in the **** doesn't it! And so the scene evolves until it is made up purely of the Pete Tong's and Tiesto's of the Hardcore world. At least it would stop piracy as there would be nothing left to pirate.
Agreed this would stop most of the d/l, but anyone that does d/l tunes will be able to tell you that not all tunes have to be released to be able to find them.
I myself have d/l tunes before that ain't released and in the nfo attacted it has stated that the soure was a cdr or promo vinyl, so my point is if it came from a cdr surley that means that the producer has gave a copy to some dj to use in his set and hes uploaded it some where
An example of this would be "Judge Jules & Micheal Woods - So Special" this was floating about month before it was released on vinyl or cds (JJ tunes normally take as long as raverbaby tunes to be realeased) in the nfo it stated it was ripped from a cdr |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Goldfinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
If the whole scene was like that, and no records got released as that was the only way that the label owners could keep their career (remember to these artists it is their career not just a part time job) is to stop releasing records and just use them to play out themselves as a performance. Kind of leaves the smaller DJs in the **** doesn't it! And so the scene evolves until it is made up purely of the Pete Tong's and Tiesto's of the Hardcore world. At least it would stop piracy as there would be nothing left to pirate.
Agreed this would stop most of the d/l, but anyone that does d/l tunes will be able to tell you that not all tunes have to be released to be able to find them.
I myself have d/l tunes before that ain't released and in the nfo attacted it has stated that the soure was a cdr or promo vinyl, so my point is if it came from a cdr surley that means that the producer has gave a copy to some dj to use in his set and hes uploaded it some where
An example of this would be "Judge Jules & Micheal Woods - So Special" this was floating about month before it was released on vinyl or cds (JJ tunes normally take as long as raverbaby tunes to be realeased) in the nfo it stated it was ripped from a cdr
Yeah I guess they'd just stop giving any promos out to anyone other than their most trusted colleagues and friends. It would mean no one at all but the big producers would have full tracks. |
| DarrenJ |
I dont think it will work, sadly.. wrote a huge rant but I think the brisk qoute on this thread sums it up |
| Ionosphere |
PAID is a good idea and I hope it has an effect and yeh, Brisk said it all....
....but will it be the death of Hardcore? I don't think so.
If the people that make a living from producing Hardcore stop producing because it no longer pays,
those that love Hardcore will listen to whatever is still available.
Where will this available Hardcore come from?
....the producers that do it anyway, because they love producing it.
So, Hardcore won't die.
It may not be up to the high production standards that we now take for granted
but that didn't make the early days of Hardcore bad. (and there was little or no money in it back then either)
Of course, you won't be able to walk into Woolworths and buy a pretty CD but you'll be able to download it for little or
*edit* (just in case someone else chooses to misunderstand)
if the pirates can't be stopped ....nothing.
|
| Ionosphere |
 |
| Underloop |
Mind the gap! |
| NeXuS |
this board is probably the most sane on out there...
thanks you guys for not being idiots ^^ |
| Ionosphere |
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
Mind the gap!
....and if this site is as sane as NeXuS says, well...., I'm glad I don't bother with the others.
|
| deejaybee |
Sorry Ionosphere but I totally disagree with everything you have just said.
I admit that just becuase the bigger players in the scene leave, it doesnt
mean that people will stop producing but at the same time you have to
remember (and I mean this with 100% respect) young producers such as
yourself (and myself) havent got enough recognition and pulling power to
continue with a scene.
If Brisk, Dougal, Sy, Hixxy, Breeze etc all decided they couldnt afford to make
hardcore, then pretty much the scene would be on its ass... noone to go to
raves, noone to release music and noone to promote it in the way only they
can.
Sure, you would be happy making music in your bedroom, im sure it would
be great... i even expect that the 50 people on an internet forum that hear
it would hail it as the beginning of a new hardcore genre... but sadly I fear
it would be all for a loss.
Now I dont wanna piss on anyones bombfire here but I love the scene at the
moment, I remember it when it was on its ass last time, it sucked ass and the
one thing that kept me going was the chance that one day I might be the one
playing Slammin, HTID, Uproar etc... if all the producers dry up and stop
making hardcore, then all of that goes.
Lets sum it up, what happens if all 'top teir' support dissapears...
- No Compilations
- No Large Scale Raves
- No Large Labels
- No Ravers
- No Financial Backing
Sorry mate, but im past the point where im content with a few people on an
internet forum telling me my tunes are good, I wanna hear them played at
the big events and hear my heros from the past caining them as well...
It doesnt mean im in it for the money, I gew from love of this scene just like
the rest of you but over time I have matured and now I want more, its only
natural.
its pretty shocking that you as a producer, just starting to come through the
ranks would not support a worthy cause such as this.
Some arguments I have read say "oh what can you do, you can never stop
them all" ... P-A-I-D is raising awareness that this problem exists... and it
truely does...
I speak to many of the so say 'top teir' on a weekly basis due to gigs and
studio commitments and I stress, this problem is now at breaking point...
its no longer an if or maybe situation, if something doesnt change then there
is no way these people can afford to carry on.
If you like hardcore, and you want it to continue, now is the time to show
support not give your half ass excuses to why you dont want to pay for
hardcore.... |
| Ionosphere |
quote:
Originally posted by deejaybee:
Sorry Ionosphere but I totally disagree with everything you have just said.
....young producers such as yourself....
"young producers". You are far too kind mate.
We started out back in about 1990/91 by putting on, and DJing at, our own raves.
Our first release, on vinyl, was in 1992 when we were young producers.
Our last release, on vinyl, was in 1996 at which point we sort of stopped bothering. Jobs, women, life in general. A dilution of focus.
We never stopped making music, just didn't have the.... ambition to push ourselves.
We still do it because we love it, not because we want fame and fortune.
I think that you've failed to understand my original point.
We fully support PAID. and wish it success.
but
In the begining there were no big names. We were there, I remember it well.
There were no big commercial raves, just small or illegal ones.
If the pirates win, and we hope that they don't, and if the big names leave, and if the big raves close, etc etc etc,
Hardcore, imo, will revert to it's origins.
That's all I'm saying
and to clarify the point that is why I posted this -
(some further 'Ionosphere' information here - http://www.rolldabeats.com/artist/ionosphere)
|
| Cotts |
This thread really will go back and forth.
Everyone has their own opinion and it is really hard to change people that are set in their ways. Especially on something as informal as the internet.
I personally love hardcore and do buy the tunes that I love the most, vinyl is expensive to buy but IMO download really is a great service and for what it is, is quite cheap.
At the end of the day, people will still pirate and some will buy the music. No matter what happens here things will still stay at the same level. I will continue to love hardcore and I can only do my part to keep it alive, i just hope others follow. |
| DJBrownout |
quote:
Originally posted by Cotts:
This thread really will go back and forth.
Everyone has their own opinion and it is really hard to change people that are set in their ways. Especially on something as informal as the internet.
I personally love hardcore and do buy the tunes that I love the most, vinyl is expensive to buy but IMO download really is a great service and for what it is, is quite cheap.
At the end of the day, people will still pirate and some will buy the music. No matter what happens here things will still stay at the same level. I will continue to love hardcore and I can only do my part to keep it alive, i just hope others follow.
Ha, well said. Pretty much my thoughts too.
|
| Orbit1 |
quote:
Originally posted by DJBrownout:
quote:
Originally posted by Cotts:
This thread really will go back and forth.
Everyone has their own opinion and it is really hard to change people that are set in their ways. Especially on something as informal as the internet.
I personally love hardcore and do buy the tunes that I love the most, vinyl is expensive to buy but IMO download really is a great service and for what it is, is quite cheap.
At the end of the day, people will still pirate and some will buy the music. No matter what happens here things will still stay at the same level. I will continue to love hardcore and I can only do my part to keep it alive, i just hope others follow.
Ha, well said. Pretty much my thoughts too.
Quoted for extra double truthaliscious goodness. |
| Ionosphere |
'Digital watermarking' to detect audio piracy
By G. Anand
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM, INDIA. FEB 29 'O6
The Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC) is developing an 'audio watermarking tool' designed to aid law enforcers in combating music piracy.
According to C-DAC officials, the software tool could be used to secretly 'embed' copyright information in digital audio products.
The embedded information would contain specifics about the copyright owner, the batch number of the product and usage restrictions of the digital content.
The hidden digital watermark does not alter the quality of the music content and is designed to be un-detectable to the human ear.
The C-DAC, which is the National Resource Centre for Cyber Forensic research under the Central Government, is also in the process of developing a cyber forensic software tool which would enable
the Police to check 'hidden' copyright information embedded in music CDs and cassettes using the audio water marking technique.
The digital watermarks are designed to be unalterable and could withstand file manipulations such as compression or conversion to cassettes.
"The watermark containing the copyright information would endure even if a song is copied from the original CD into a cassette or converted to MP-3 format.
It is easy for law enforcers to retrieve the watermark information by reconverting the cassette into digital format," a C-DAC scientist pointed out.
The information embedded in the 'audio watermark' would help law enforcers trace the source of the piracy.
"It would be easy for Police to find out from which original cassette or CD the pirated music was sourced.
They can also find which vendor had sold the original CD used for piracy.
This could perhaps lead the Police to the offender.
The technical evidence could be used in court to ensure conviction in music piracy cases," he said. |
| eLASTIC |
I buy Hardcore but thats not to say ive never downloaded anything in the past lol.
I support PAID and think itll make a difference but not much, people will always download plainly cause they couldnt careless. The only people that would care are the people that are outv pocket and the people that love Hardcore with a passion. I think the people that currently dont really care will stay in that dont really care mentality.
But it is good to have a body to say that its not Public acceptable, its got to make a lil difference atleast. ; )
It is kinda slack for the people that depend on it fulltime. |
| DJBrownout |
quote:
Originally posted by Ionosphere:
'Digital watermarking' to detect audio piracy
By G. Anand
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM, INDIA. FEB 29 'O6
The Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC) is developing an 'audio watermarking tool' designed to aid law enforcers in combating music piracy.
According to C-DAC officials, the software tool could be used to secretly 'embed' copyright information in digital audio products.
The embedded information would contain specifics about the copyright owner, the batch number of the product and usage restrictions of the digital content.
The hidden digital watermark does not alter the quality of the music content and is designed to be un-detectable to the human ear.
The C-DAC, which is the National Resource Centre for Cyber Forensic research under the Central Government, is also in the process of developing a cyber forensic software tool which would enable
the Police to check 'hidden' copyright information embedded in music CDs and cassettes using the audio water marking technique.
The digital watermarks are designed to be unalterable and could withstand file manipulations such as compression or conversion to cassettes.
"The watermark containing the copyright information would endure even if a song is copied from the original CD into a cassette or converted to MP-3 format.
It is easy for law enforcers to retrieve the watermark information by reconverting the cassette into digital format," a C-DAC scientist pointed out.
The information embedded in the 'audio watermark' would help law enforcers trace the source of the piracy.
"It would be easy for Police to find out from which original cassette or CD the pirated music was sourced.
They can also find which vendor had sold the original CD used for piracy.
This could perhaps lead the Police to the offender.
The technical evidence could be used in court to ensure conviction in music piracy cases," he said.
that's some serious ninja sh it |
| Underloop |
quote:
Originally posted by Ionosphere:
'Digital watermarking' to detect audio piracy
By G. Anand
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM, INDIA. FEB 29 'O6
The Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC) is developing an 'audio watermarking tool' designed to aid law enforcers in combating music piracy......
Could an sudio watermark like this be embedded in vinyl then? How would that hold up to being digitally recorded into mp3? I notice it mentions copying from digital to cassette, but can it go the other way round? |
| Simon |
I've stayed out of this one, because it's a no win situation.
I have to agree with much the same things that Ionosphere said - At the end of the day no matter how bad it gets there will still be a scene, just one that not many of us are used to.
Of course we don't want to lose our best producers and all the experience that they bring, but this mp3 music sharing lark has been going around in circles for the past 4- 5 years now (and will imo continue to do so). Whatever will be, will be. |
| Samination |
Just finding out what Frequency that "watermark" uses, and you'll easily remvoe it throu a amp? =P |
| Underloop |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
Just finding out what Frequency that "watermark" uses, and you'll easily remvoe it throu a amp? =P
If its interspersed throughout the frequency range then no. For instance, if it was at 50 random frequencies (very narrowband - almost sine) then you would need a very good parametric EQ to get rid of it.
Of course, it could be filtered out using software - even if the frequencies are random for each track, there would have to be a signal somewhere that said "this is where the frequencies are" which could be read into the software and used to design a filter to filter it out, or alter it in such a way to make it legal. That wouldn't be at all hard to crack.
This is of course assuming that this is how it does work. However, wherever there are intelligent minds capable of creating an uncrackable lock, there are more intelligent minds capable of picking that lock - thats the way the world goes round! Without meaning to sound like a pessimist, there is no such thing as unbreakable encryption - to my mind this is not the way forward.
Look at the trend over the past few years with the whole piracy issue. It started out with the launch of mp3 and people discovering file sharing. Everybody did it. Nobody saw right from wrong, and laws were sketchy to say the least on the whole P2P front. Over time people started to see what it was doing, and the responsible few started to use P2P wisely. Buying what they liked, not buyuing what they didn't. Many pumping the money they would have spent in in other ways, concerts (particularly smaller bands) and other events.
However, even with the reversal of the trend, certain organisations continued to push - and as a result of this those who were trying to be sensible about P2P started to lose alot of respect for these organisations, and thus we find ourselves at the stage we do today. Its like the harder they pushed the more the public pushed back. Examples I can think of:
RIAA sueing over nursery rhymes - the press had a field day!
Metallica kicking off about Napster - I remember Billy Joe from Greenday taking the mick out of Metallica on stage for that
Sony and their attempts at stopping CD copying
Just generally the RIAA are classed as a joke. Even the artists themselves are standing up and saying "hey, these guys aren't respecting our wishes".
Now I know this thread isn't about the RIAA or mainstream music in general, but there are alot of lessons to be learnt to my mind. Piracy isn't going to go away, thats for sure, but if people can realise what it is doing to the industry before more people do start leaving because of it then the better the (music) scene will be. Heavy handedness isn't the secret, except in a minority of cases. |
| Samination |
What I'm going to write now might get abit out of topic, but it's still generally about about MP3...
To be honest. Isn't the reason behind why Digital files don't sell, that most people who listens to Hardcore are narrow minded about what format Hardcore is? Hardcore, like ALL genre's are audio, so should it matter on what format it's released on?
To sum it up from this thread and the USH.net one;
People who buy vinyls and vinyl-only releasing Labels are pissed on people who download?
And;
People who buy digital are pissed on Labels who don't go digital, or have a hefty pricetag on their files?
Like most people have said, there's alot of pro's and con's about legal/illegal filesharing/downloading.
Pro's:
* So far I know, most non-english people I know got into Hardcore throu the likes of Ka-ZaA and Soul-Seek. How many of these today that have started buying Hardcore or stopped downloading, I don't know, except that I personally have almost entirly stopped downloading Hardcore illegally (sometimes I download a track I got on a vinyl that I could play properly), aswell that I have spent ALOT of money for CD and digital files to try to keep it going.
Con's
* Ofcourse, Producers will lose money on it, and as long as both sides (Produvers vs Pirates) doesn't try to find a comprimize (?), both sides will hate each other. |
| motivated |
Con's
* Ofcourse, Producers will lose money on it, and as long as both sides (Producers vs Pirates) doesn't try to find a comprimize (?), both sides will hate each other.
ok...but i think if all you lived on was the downloads...(not that its likely) then id be feeling shite if i was having my shit rpped and stolen... |
| The Deviant |
I wrote a large post on watermarks but it got lost.
I'll sum it up with, Watermarks are a load of bollocks and are just scare tactics for the people who commit piracy on a large scale. I dont' believe it's possible for a so called watermark to transfer to a cassette tape and be recoverd, tape has alot of limitations regarding frequency and degridation, and even if a watermark is used and the audio stays digital, it will be cracked and removed. |
| Ionosphere |
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
Could an sudio watermark like this be embedded in vinyl then? How would that hold up to being digitally recorded into mp3? I notice it mentions copying from digital to cassette, but can it go the other way round?
Tbh, I don't know if a watermark can be embedded in vinyl but all of our vinyl releases were taken from DAT, which is a digital medium,
and also by way of answering your second question -
"It is easy for law enforcers to retrieve the watermark information by reconverting the cassette into digital format," a C-DAC scientist pointed out.
so I imagine that the same would apply to vinyl but that's just a logical guess.
....and, while I'm here, I'd like to say that this piracy malarky does bother us
as we're planning to release a load of our past/present and future work via payable download. |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by Ionosphere:
....and, while I'm here, I'd like to say that this piracy malarky does bother us
as we're planning to release a load of our past/present and future work via payable download.
I can say you this, a while ago, when I was part of a ripping group (I wont lie, I did release som vinyl-ripps), I heard that DUPE-checks (the last check before a release comes on the net) do not allow mp3/wma material, but considering that Hardcore is a small scene, ripping groups can easily say its CD sourced. |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
To be honest. Isn't the reason behind why Digital files don't sell, that most people who listens to Hardcore are narrow minded about what format Hardcore is? Hardcore, like ALL genre's are audio, so should it matter on what format it's released on?
It's not being narrow minded it's just allot of people have record decks or have both record and CD decks and would much rather use vinyl (see recent poll on here). I do think MP3 sales would go up if vinyl went completely but not a great deal, they would never reach the sales levels vinyl has. I'm a total vinyl head and I already buy MP3's of decent tracks I can't get on vinyl... I think most people who would buy MP3's are doing so already. |
| Chris Goldfinger |
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
It's not being narrow minded it's just allot of people have record decks or have both record and CD decks and would much rather use vinyl (see recent poll on here). I do think MP3 sales would go up if vinyl went completely but not a great deal, they would never reach the sales levels vinyl has. I'm a total vinyl head and I already buy MP3's of decent tracks I can't get on vinyl... I think most people who would buy MP3's are doing so already.
Agreed!!!
I buy mp3's of select tunes i can't get on vinyl but as soon as i can get the vinyl i buy it, i normally use final scratch so having the vinyl ain't essential but i still prefer to own the the vinyl |
| Dj Esi |
HARDCORE...WILL...NEVER...DIE!
bout time all those ****ing scavangers of hardcore are delt with buy the cd's i play them once to put on ma mp3 player but haveing the lovely colourful boxes and designs on m shelf makes me feel proud and its much better owning the cd rather than having to go to your pc to listen to it every time |
| Dj Esi |
cant tey just get filesharing programs like limewire kazaa and bearshare and shit and go to download something like scott brown and when they go to download it got to veiw host and then get their ip address and then where the computer is based who it is registered to and then go give them a nock on their door with a bill and say through all the music you have downloaded you have to pay for it or else the bayliffs will be hear withing 7 days or sumink think it would scare opther ppl when it started getting in papers and tv that they were clamping down on it and were being delt with servirly :D |
| bemaniraver |
now does someone like Scott Brown who'll rip off entire tracks pay the original producer while he makes some cash on a blatant rip? Now if he does then this is to be totally disregarded...But i find it funny that a fair amount of hardcore is just a rip of a rip of a rip.
|
| Samination |
Esi, if you want that, why dont you just move to USA, where you have no freedom |
| Chris Goldfinger |
Although this watermark is a good idea i personnal can't see it working.
Ever thing that has came out to stop pirates has only worked for a short time then the way to get round it is found,
Take the Xbox 360 for example it was meant to be so secure you wouldn't be able to play burnt games, how long did that last?? Not very long!!!
imo anything that is put in place to stop piracy won't work as there is just as much people prepared to spend alot of time working out how to counter act the measures that have being put in place which is meant to stop it |
| Dj Esi |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
Esi, if you want that, why dont you just move to USA, where you have no freedom
what you mean no freedom ? |
| Kyle_Buffrey |
With the rise of high speed connections, it is easier to break the law but also eaier to stay legal. Don't have decks? They produce it as a MP3 you can buy from the label. I'm tempted to buy a pair of cheapo cd decks and go down this route.
When I started mixing, tunes were accessible to me, more so than the general cd buying public, because it was vinyl only. It gave me a great buzz, knowing that I had tracks, that the cd only person couldn't buy.
Now there are MP3 exclusive tracks!
It's not really about P2P programs is it? You usually get a distorted rip, probably nicked off a bonkers cd, with half the previous track still included.
Buy a legal MP3, you get 128kbps minimum bitrate (a bit shoddy, but ok for listening too!) going up to 320kbps (really crisp sound). And I 've heard that some producers' mp3 records are coming clean straight from the mixing desk, therefore no quality loss from ripping from the vinyl or anything. You might as well spend the occassional £1 or so per track.
|
| jenks |
quote:
Originally posted by Dj Esi:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
Esi, if you want that, why dont you just move to USA, where you have no freedom
what you mean no freedom ?
It's the opposite of having freedom  |
| bulby_g |
quote:
Originally posted by Dj Esi:
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
Esi, if you want that, why dont you just move to USA, where you have no freedom
what you mean no freedom ?
No freedom to get away with stealing...
quote:
Originally posted by bemaniraver:
now does someone like Scott Brown who'll rip off entire tracks pay the original producer while he makes some cash on a blatant rip? Now if he does then this is to be totally disregarded...But i find it funny that a fair amount of hardcore is just a rip of a rip of a rip.
Apparently most of the big hardcore producers are paying royalties now, the cost of them is reduced as they have the vocals rerecorded with their own vocalist. |
| XtarsiA |
totally off topic, but.. if there was a website..
with every album ever released, and every mp3...
u just pay monthly and u can play anything u like as much as u like. u just never get to keep it, but aslong as u pay the subsription, then u can always listen to it. even have "hours per month" and then so much extra if u go over
music on demand... + still let ppl buy copys of track for 50p even 25p a track...
for portable players and stuff.
then for those ppl that sign up with this website (producers and stuff) they get paid proportionatly to how much there stuff was listened to + any direct purchases...
make it easyer for ppl to find anything by paying rather than p2p/shareing...
anyone get my idea? lol |
| Dj Esi |
think my idea is best search the ip adresses who share hardcore music and then get details form that and go giv them a bill :D |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by Dj Esi:
think my idea is best search the ip adresses who share hardcore music and then get details form that and go giv them a bill :D
Oh great, you just raised my bill 10000%
anyways, what I meant earlier is, whats you're reason for being so pissed of on filesharing? are you a producer who's signed to a/released tracks on a label who is loosing money on it?
XtarsiA: sounds like a great idea, but one reason to why some don't like digital files are the quality. using highest quality (on Windows, WAV, which can be as big as 70MB for 6-7 minutes ( (seconds * 1411)/8 = filesize in kiloBytes ), and high speed Host in England is propably not very cheap |
| Chris Goldfinger |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
[high speed Host in England is propably not very cheap
Sky have just started work on upgrading the system, very soon they will be offering 16meg connection unlimited for £10 a month for all there digital customers, you aint gonna get cheaper than that!! |
| Dj Esi |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
quote:
Originally posted by Dj Esi:
think my idea is best search the ip adresses who share hardcore music and then get details form that and go giv them a bill :D
Oh great, you just raised my bill 10000%
anyways, what I meant earlier is, whats you're reason for being so pissed of on filesharing? are you a producer who's signed to a/released tracks on a label who is loosing money on it?
artist spend ages on tracks lots of hardwork and effort go into them and they deserve the credit for it and the profit in return yeh i admit i may download the odd track now and then to see what and album is like then 90% of the time i buy the album artists are being robbed of their music if no one buys their songs they dont make any money to pay for equiptment bills artist dont wrk in asda as a second job ... i dont think so anyway so money they make on tracks is their main income without it their bankcrupt and would have to follow a new career
*cry* Is hardcore going to die? or fade out *cry*
|
| HC-NIX |
I don't own a pair of decks and too be honest I don't want to, I do however own a pair of cdj's. Yes I know a few of you will be cursing me right now you vinyl junkies! I have nothing against vinyl it just doesn’t appeal to me it’s too expensive and takes up too much room, yes the sound quality can be better than downloads but this is something that will be sorted out and truth be told technology is moving on and cd decks are looking more and more like the way forward, they have more features, great effects and really are just clever machines. I expect some of you would have noticed that some of the big Hardcore DJ's are also using CDJ's and I’m sure I wouldn’t be wrong in thinking that the reason CDJ’s were invented was down to top DJ’s like them wanting to enhance the clubbers experience.
Anyway keeping to the subject in-hand I am fully happy to support ‘PAID’ I believe the artist deserves to be paid for his or her work and after all they need to live too. I obviously believe digital is the way forward as downloads are a way of keeping up with the latest tunes, it’s quicker to get hold of tracks and is simply more convenient but in order to save the dance scene from losing money I believe downloading from legal sites needs to be improved especially in the hardcore genre there are simply are not enough choice of tracks (unless I haven’t found the right sites yet- can anyone help?) and I believe because of this, this is another reason why people go to illegal download sites
|
| Ionosphere |
quote:
Originally posted by HC-NIX:
I believe downloading from legal sites needs to be improved especially in the hardcore genre there are simply are not enough choice of tracks
(unless I haven’t found the right sites yet- can anyone help?)
http://shop.happyhardcore.com
http://www.uk-vinyl.co.uk |
| Mortis |
Quoted from Hixxy on the htid forums:
The mp3 store is finished but won’t be up and running now until the next batch are released on 12” over the next few weeks.
Also………..I always get asked about illegal down loads and how I feel about them but, in all honesty I don’t really mind about a little bit of file sharing because I think it’s a great way of spreading the music onto people like back in the day with the old tapes being passed out to your mates recorded and passed on. If they like what they hear most of these people will eventually purchase an album, records or go to an event & I’m sure in some way that person will then get involved with and help contribute to the maintenance of the scene.
I do personally want to stop the people who sell pirated downloads or ripped to cd/dvd’s of full catalogues on ebay and also stop sites that you have to pay a fee to join and download as much as you like. Why should someone earn anything from other peoples hard work when they are doing absolutely fook all !!!
I am very fortunate to have made this my profession and I know how lucky I am to be able to concentrate on hardcore full time but, even if there was no financial gain in this scene I would still be making and playing hardcore like I did through out 98,99 and part of 2000 when the hardcore scene was financially on it’s arse. However, back then I couldn’t commit as much time as I would of liked to the producing hardcore because like others I still had to make a living somehow & I personally think because of some of the blatant down loading/bootlegging that is going on then Some dj’s/producers/labels are going to start being effected and will soon be going through the same scenario that some people and labels had to deal with back in 97-2000.
Nobody will ever have the power to stop every pirated or illegal down load & I certainly don’t want too because I do believe that this scene and others like it spread, grow and regenerate themselves via the music getting spread around via one medium or another. I don’t really like the blatant down loads of full catalogues and the selling of pirate cd’s/dvd’s though and hopefully with support from everyone we will stamp out some of the deliberate piracy that may otherwise cause some dj’s/producers or labels to start leaving or even stop some of the future breed from committing to this scene full time because they just can not survive from just doing hardcore.
Hope this answers a few questions on from my side of down loads and why I have signed Raverbaby upto P.A.I.D |
| Samination |
Holy shit, i thought Hixxy to be a full-on "death to filesharer" kind of bloke, like Scott Brown :P, but his opinions are just like DJ UFO's in the old HHC interview |
| Jax |
that post by hixxy is absolutly bang on |
| Dj Esi |
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
Holy shit, i thought Hixxy to be a full-on "death to filesharer" kind of bloke, like Scott Brown :P, but his opinions are just like DJ UFO's in the old HHC interview
yeh i noticed that |
| sky144 |
I agree that people should pay for there music but some time the option is not there. Hardcore tracks take ages to come out. Take raverbaby for example there's tracks that I've heard ages ago and I'm waiting to come out to come out. It takes months even years.
how difficult can it be to get imodownload.com or similar to distribute your tracks. If people can get there music legally they might not take to piracy. |
| __CMC__ |
I posted on the HTID forum ages ago about this, no response no nothing!
**** it till hixxy gets his finger out i'll still get them digitally, but on that note i would like to point out i own 100's of records, 100's of cd's and i am hitting well over 100 gig of wav/mp3 files that have been aqquired legally from the record pools (hiphop, R&B and commercal house) or bought from trackitdown, juno, etc. (hardstyle, hardcore, trance and electro house) |
| Samination |
to go back on topic... what has PAID done? |
| FingazMc |
Even if magically all the P2P programs were shutdown and all the t/orrent sites were closed piracy would still be majorly about.....Its just as easy to rip an internet radio station or grab audio from a myspace page or grab the video and/or audio from youtube videos, well any java or flash type thing for that matter.
Cant see the problem ever going away but i spose its one of those things that happens when a style of music goes commercial.
Shame really that all the Dj's and producers etc in hardcore finally get the chance to make money after all these years and there skimped majorly by piracy. |
| Samination |
well personally, I havent heard about any actions taken by PAID (that atleast didnt have a long effect), but I don't think it's that easy to just get the bad guy(s).
possible, the only thing they could do is either mail the offendant, or play the same game as RIAA in the states does, high stake law suits (but UK Court system works different from the US) |
| l0fls |
i disagree i think downloading illegally is an amazing thing but then if i really love a track i will buy the record.
i am a hardcore ******* junkie. |
| silver |
^^^ your not a hardcore fan your a hardcore leech and no help to anyone. You can't pick and choose what you pay for in a supermarket... oh I don't like this food so I'm not going to pay for it... weak argument, if you like it enough to pirate it you like it enough to buy it.
You want free hardcore tune into the radio on this site, 100% free, 100% legal. |
| mitchy_boy |
I much prefer having the actual cd in my possesion, and u feel good noing that some producer or band is being rewarded for their hardwork and talent. |
| Starstruck |
It's extremely selfish and arrogant to obtain your music so freely like that.
I am 15 years old i don't even have a job, but with present money or from jobs i do to receive money, a large percentage goes towards music purchase.
Starstruck. |
| ravekutz |
That's a great cause paid! So good to see someone out there is doing something about it. Basically if you download hardcore illegally your a thieving prick. Download trance instead, those guys make to much money anyway. |
| Mental_Adam |
If you ask me it's the Music industry who is to blame for all this mess... Not people. They knew this would happen when the internet was created... They only make this happen as all it doe's is cause more of your music freedoms to be taken away and it creates money.... I don't see the harm in say a friend sending 1 track to another friend on a chat programme like msn.. So when you mean 'Don't FileShare'.. Doe's that mean you can no longer send any of your contacts a music file? |
| Mental_Adam |
Don't get me wrong... I've been a member of this forum for awhile and i've bought and sold alot of music products of auctions etc... But i've just become tired of the high prices CDs are, i now wait months and months down the line as the product will finally be slashed at least 3X it's value and due to the current situation in the UK i think no one wants to pay £15 and then discover a few months down the line it's only £4... You can see why people result to piracy though? |
| Jax |
lol |
| Samination |
lets take a logical look at it (without the oppinion on if its wrong or right).
Is downloading stealing? If so, then the source would be removed, but it's not?
Mental_Adam: No one KNEW what the internet would become. Seriously, the speeds where equal to regular serial port on your computer, so it wasn't worth more than posting on BBS or whatever it was called back in the 70's/80's.
I do agree that they took the wrong way to look at the digital market at an early stage, but look at it at this;
Artists hated it when Grammophones entered the game.
The same thing happened when the CD entered the game.
Heck, Beatles' album where the last well known band to get their stuff released on CD, and so far there no legal mp3 store that sells Beatles |
| oscarwildone |
quote:
Originally posted by The Deviant:
You have got to think about who and why some of these people are going down the illegal download route. If you have a young teenager who doesn't have a credit card and they can't borrow their parents, and they want a tune that's not on the latest bonkers or whatever hardcore compilation, then illegal downloads are they only way they can get it. Im not saying it's ok to download illegally, but there are times when peolple who have money, have no way to pay for things.
yes they do. its called paypal |
| DJLiight |
In my opinion, I dont see the point of buying MP3s. For that you can just buy the full CD MP3s are for chumps. I dont see someone as a real DJ unless they buy theyre CDs or Vinyls. Thats just how it is to me. |
| Dain-Ja |
quote:
Originally posted by DJLiight:
In my opinion, I dont see the point of buying MP3s. For that you can just buy the full CD MP3s are for chumps. I dont see someone as a real DJ unless they buy theyre CDs or Vinyls. Thats just how it is to me.
Umm, there's about two major labels that release hardcore CD singles. |
| latininxtc |
quote:
Originally posted by DJLiight:
In my opinion, I dont see the point of buying MP3s. For that you can just buy the full CD MP3s are for chumps. I dont see someone as a real DJ unless they buy theyre CDs or Vinyls. Thats just how it is to me.
your 2nd sentence doesn't make any sense. and your 3rd one sounds stupid. there are djs that do DJing using mp3s now and there are others that use vinyl and others use CDs, but CD singles of hardcore tracks are hard to come by. now for the sake of getting off topic, this is not an argument of who is and who isn't a DJ by what media they use
now, some of us (like me) would enjoy to have that whole track by themselves and not have to deal with just owning the track that was str8 from a mix. and since CD singles don't exist (and cost more because of packaging and stuff) mp3 singles make sense. but of course someone should get the whole mp3 CD if it's a mix CD. but if it's an unmixed CD then it would make sense to only purchase individual tracks if there are very few from that album you like.
and in many cases it saves time to buy the MP3 CD because every time i do buy a CD i rip it so that I can put it on my Zune. why wait for shipping (since i'm from the states i have to wait longer) when i can go to a website and pay and start downloading? but personally i still buy the CDs because it helps out the DJs and companies involved in the CD. keeping the scene alive with what i can |
| Samination |
quote:
Originally posted by oscarwildone:
quote:
Originally posted by The Deviant:
You have got to think about who and why some of these people are going down the illegal download route. If you have a young teenager who doesn't have a credit card and they can't borrow their parents, and they want a tune that's not on the latest bonkers or whatever hardcore compilation, then illegal downloads are they only way they can get it. Im not saying it's ok to download illegally, but there are times when peolple who have money, have no way to pay for things.
yes they do. its called paypal
and a bank that needs to be verified, which can... take up 2 weeks? Heck that makes stealing the vinyl from the store more appealing.
If the music is sold locally, I think the CD is the best way, but for guys like me, who doesn't live in a country where Hardcore is "native", I have to import, which makes MP3 more appealing to buy.
Silver, Im not going to defend the guy, but How is your argument any better? If I dont like the fruit, I wouldn't touch it. and about sampling it, a fruit is less expensive to buy 1 for sampling than buying a hardcore record to find out you didn't like it.
But then, maybe we should make a site where we post clips for various releases, and if people like them, they could try to find them in stores or 2nd hand stores? |
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