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Righteous9
Advanced Member
United States
1,516 posts
Joined: Jun, 2004
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 Posted - 2007/06/14 : 22:58:50
Drunk post, but I'm wordering about Pro Tools, can you produce Hardcore like the pros, I mean is Pro Tools the standard now? I'm going to school for Music and Video Production and they use Pro Tools! Sorry, I'm a little buzzed!
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Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 2007/06/15 : 00:26:03
I don't know of any any Hardcore producers who Pro Tools :P Cubase and Logic are the standard there. Pro Tools is used alot in other music industries though, it's just not as good for electronic music as say Cubase :P
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Underloop
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,895 posts
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Posted - 2007/06/15 : 13:23:06
Pro Tools is the dogs for recording / processing / editing audio and working with video.
Its rubbish for midi though, whereas Logic, Cubase, Sonar etc are all loads better
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Cotts
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Australia
917 posts
Joined: Aug, 2004
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Posted - 2007/06/15 : 13:41:51
Im learning Cubase SX3 at the moment and im finding it totally fantastic. Really handles Midi nicely and you can do everything in the program very smoothly and precicely.
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Sk8SiM
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 2007/06/15 : 17:11:32
Pro Tools is the Industry standard in terms of the "recording industry"
Go into any recording studio and they’ll most likely have a pro tools rig set up!
Cubase SX3 however, is the industry standard for "electronic music" [This includes hardcore  ]
However, you don't have to follow this... It’s simply down to a producers taste...
Although if you want to make it professionally, then stay away from software such as FL Studio and reason [however, reason can be giving the benefit of the dowt]
When you get to this stage you'll end up stressing out with the sound engineering!
In FL studios favor though - I still argue that it is the most creative & fun software studio there is...
I still use it today ONLY for the purpose of "Fun" - plug my midi controller in, boot FL up and WALA! You’re away! No fannying about - it’s so simple and easy to write music in it!
Where as in cubase... the word "effort" springs to mind!
As for overall production and (more importantly) engineering - Cubase SX is your dogs bollox!
Which I can't stress enough how important that factor is!
Hope that helps :)
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Future_Shock
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Australia
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Posted - 2007/06/16 : 11:44:04
eh i disagree with some of whats in the post above...
A sequencer is only as good as the producer who uses it.
A good producer will make good music from anything they use (within reason)
If you DO want to do it professionally, dont automatically think you have to get Cubase to be professional, because thats a load of shit.
What about Waves for audio editing and mastering?
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Righteous9
Advanced Member
United States
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Posted - 2007/06/16 : 12:44:13
Okay, just the art college I want to go to (Columbia College) uses Pro Tools, but I'm sure I can learn Cubase as well..., I just can't afford the software and also I need to learn it!, self taught for producing is almost impossible for me, I don't know enough, I used to get "Sound on Sound" Magazine, and they have tips for Cubase, I was just wondering if I'm gonna learn to produce Hardcore with Pro Tools, I kinda got that feeling that it's for every other genre, but they say at "Columbia" that it should work, I know some kids from the UK that go there and they totally know about raving, It's crazy how far I've taken this, DJ all theto Producer just because my roommate asked if he could use my old dusty TT's and renewed my interest!, Really I don't even know if it's where I wanna go in life but I feel this crazy desire to keep going, I know your're tired of my wannabe ass but I'm sticking to my gut feelings...
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Sk8SiM
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2007/06/16 : 12:50:37
quote:
Originally posted by Influx:
eh i disagree with some of whats in the post above...
A sequencer is only as good as the producer who uses it.
A good producer will make good music from anything they use (within reason)
If you DO want to do it professionally, dont automatically think you have to get Cubase to be professional, because thats a load of shit.
What about Waves for audio editing and mastering?
Production - Yes! Your correct!
Engineering Wise However - No! - Reason and FL are known to be poorer quietly then cubase, pro tools & logic!
Thats blind fact ^^^ you can't argue with that... They ARE the industry standards as for the amount of producers in each industry using them the most!
You need to ask yourself... why bother putting the time and effort in to producer what could be a very complex track, if you already KNOW your not gonna get good results from the mixdown later!
Sound is like love - it can be blind!
I remember when i used to use FL and i'd kid myself in thinking that my tunes sound quietly was good! lmao!
Its only after using cubase for so long now that i look back and can now blatantly hear the difference from FL and reason! - Asif my ears have been trained in "good sound" -
Lets Sum Things Up...
Reason - £300
Cubase SX 4 - £600
Its almost twice the price! why? Cuse its Designed by professionals to be nothing but what "professionals" WANT and NEED from a good software studio! If you want good results in music then you should settle for nothing but the best... I can't stress how much!
And besides - your software studio is most likely going to be your CORE element to your studio... so if you choice a shite one - then don't expect your hardware [DAW, Monitors, Rack ect] To make up for it... cuse they won't! therefore - it makes perfectly good sense to splash out of the best! Otherwise all that money you've invested in hi-tech hardware would just be a waste of money - if your software studio can't match up to there power.
I respect what your saying about the whole "A sequencer is only as good as the producer who uses it." - But personally i think this is just a pathetic excuse for musicians or can't see "common sense" [and 9/10 times, know **** ALL about engineering!] the Reason being as this can only been looked upon for production! However Sound engineering (which is far more important!) is ALL THE SAME! Its all about your Knowledge & Experience and NOTHING to do with the software! the difference comes in sound quietly, Features, Tools and user interface!
In which FL & Reason SUCK BALLS!
Now you don't have to just settle for cubase, there are many other industry standards out there... all I'm saying is... when buying software... ALWAYS THINK about the engineering first - before you even consider production!
As i Say...
Sound can be very blind - Don't kid yourself with shite software!
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Edited by - Sk8SiM on 2007/06/16 12:55:42 |
Future_Shock
Advanced Member
Australia
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Posted - 2007/06/16 : 20:41:34
but most of the sound engineering comes post-production anyway?
The internal sound engine in fl is shit yes, but after exported to a .wav at the highest quality setting, i fail to see how you can prove theres a difference in sound quality in the .wav file.
So, assuming that you go by the sound of the final product, not the sound while its still in fl, itll be the same. I agree though that its a LOT harder, expecially considering how ****ing awkward it is to record vocals in fl.
Aslong as you dont do any post-production WITHIN fl (which would be stupid, because i know professionals who dont even master within cubase) there is no difference. If you can prove a difference ill eat my hat.
This is all assuming you dont use the built-in VST's in fl, which are by fact, blatantly shit.
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Underloop
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2007/06/17 : 11:40:56
I know lots of professionals who use Reason. Like Influx says, export it to a wav and you can tweak it to your heart's content if your not happy with the sound. Hell, with a multi-out soundcard you can process it on-the-fly externally if you so wish.
Sorry Si, but I totally disagree with your reasoning (pun intended ;-) ). You should choose a setup that suits you. One that you can work well with. The first stage is getting something down into the sequencer - surely the most important stage? I find this easier in Reason - Cubase I find to convoluted, Logic less so, but still harder than Reason.
After that is arrangement - ok, you got me here, I do prefer Logic for this (or Cubase if that takes your fancy) as I'm not a big fan of the sequencer in Reason - but there are some freeware sequencers I'm sure that you can re-wire in.
Stage after is tweaking the sounds. The studio layout of Reason lends itself so well to re-routing cabling to layer sounds, getting your dub-delays on etc. You can do similar in Logic, but the Environment system is a bit complicated. Cubase - last I saw doesn't have any cabling feature, but I haven't used it for a few versions. You have to duplicate tracks etc etc
Mix-down - I prefer Logic for this, or again Cubase for you Steinberg heads). Could also be done in pro-tools, or externally.
A setup I am considering is Reason tied in with Pro-Tools M-Powered. However, if you are a student I think you can get hold of a copy of pro-tools academic version for about 30squid.
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Sk8SiM
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2007/06/17 : 22:05:23
quote:
Originally posted by Influx:
But most of the sound engineering comes post-production anyway?
Excuse me? No it doesn’t… I think your confused… if your talking about rendering each and every separate melody & instrument to wave and then doing a separate mixdown in a separate software studio then not only are you wrong but your also defeating the whole point of the debate!
The “engineering” is the mixdown of recording process [or in our case, as electronic artists = The Track]!
Post Production is the final editing and “vamping up” [Compressing, EQ ect] of the FINAL WAVEFORM of the “finished recording/render” – making it ready for CD and/or distribution! Another term you may use for this process is “mastering.”
You can’t possibly EQ and FX each separate instruments in post production… nor can you group channels or sidechain!
Therefore what you have stated is false information!
quote:
Originally posted by Influx:
The internal sound engine in fl is shit yes, but after exported to a .wav at the highest quality setting, I fail to see how you can prove there’s a difference in sound quality in the .wav file.
So, assuming that you go by the sound of the final product, not the sound while it’s still in fl, it’ll be the same.
And here is where the problem lies! Yes you’re correct – YOU CAN just render it! [Trust me, I did it for 6 month] But once again you’re completely missing the point of the debate!
That is “what is the industry standard for production/recorded music”
So please… tell me, “why the hell spend £400 + on professional studio monitors [not to mention £1000s on other hardware] – if your software studio is not capable of producing a signal for its power!
The audio signal that is transmitted from FL Studio is not going to get any better no matter what you do with it!
This includes the “internal” mixdown inside the software studio…
Meaning it is POINTLESS!
Industry standard software however like cubase, logic, pro tools ect… has TRANSPARRENT audio coming right out of the sequencer… what you hear in the rendered wav is the same as what you engineered inside the application!
This also means that not only do you mixdown your work inside the same software studio [as you should], but you can also MASTER and do all the post production inside the same project, the same application and even the same render! [Killing two birds with one stone!]
All that hard work you put into FL though… Will never pay off… your just left with nothing! [Trust me on this one, I know first hand… you wouldn’t believe the stress I had with it]
Not just that, but the mixer interface is awful and your are limited to what a “professional” would need!
quote:
Originally posted by Influx:
This is all assuming you don’t use the built-in VST's in fl, which are by fact, blatantly shit.
Remember what you said… “The tool is only as shite as the person using it”
Well my argument back to that was that this only meant for “production” – in which case VSTi fully comply with that…
I ent too keen on most the vstis in FL myself… But I DO however know people who have generated piano sounds out of that crappy “3xosc” in FL! [I know, shocking!]
Once again, proving that it is simply down to the persons take on it!
Me myself… I still Use the “FL Multi VSTi” Plug-in with cubase, as there is one FL instrument I couldn’t live without… and that’s FLkeys – it’s the best piano VSTi I know, its simple, and perfect…. IT’S A SIMPLE GRAND PIANO! – And that’s I want from it, and it’s what I get
Also the soundfont player is handy, Plucked is a nice hard [and I want all the sounds I can get] and the boo bass is just the same as a bass guitar!
The other reason I use this plugin is for a sampler! FL is easy to use… and great!
And you don’t need to worry about the sound quietly – as you root the instruments from FL directly into cubase!
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
Cubase - last I saw doesn't have any cabling feature, but I haven't used it for a few versions. You have to duplicate tracks etc etc
Instead it has a very simple box with your level, pan, EQ, inserts & sends! As well as root outputs [including many little fancy features dotted around it]
What else do you need?
It’s a digital software studio and last time I looked we were in the 21st century… I’m sure you’ve been in an anolog studio before mate… all those wires & cables PISS YOU OFF! So tell me… why should a software studio have a feature that “chews up CPU power” just so I can fanny about with MORE CABLES!
Don’t get me wrong, that’s great for educational reasons [why most colleges use it] but like I said before, cubase, logic ect are designed by professionals FOR professionals! Tell me, what professional wouldn’t know right off the bat “what is what, what goes where” after looking at the interface! – If anything it’s more of a sign of relief then anything! Let’s not forget, were in the digital age
p.s. I ent no professional :P haha, I’m just stating what the software is designed for. [and why there so dear]
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Leto
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United States
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Posted - 2007/06/17 : 23:21:09
quote:
Originally posted by Sk8SiM:
quote:
Originally posted by Influx:
The internal sound engine in fl is shit yes, but after exported to a .wav at the highest quality setting, I fail to see how you can prove there’s a difference in sound quality in the .wav file.
So, assuming that you go by the sound of the final product, not the sound while it’s still in fl, it’ll be the same.
All that hard work you put into FL though… Will never pay off… your just left with nothing! [Trust me on this one, I know first hand… you wouldn’t believe the stress I had with it]
Not just that, but the mixer interface is awful and your are limited to what a “professional” would need!
Hey guess what? Influx does have releases (vinyl and digital) in the pipeline, and is quite a professional. And you didn't hear it from him. So, don't assume you know everything. ;)
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jimbob squarepants
Senior Member
United Kingdom
476 posts
Joined: Sep, 2005
246 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2007/06/17 : 23:46:51
im still using music 2000 for the playstation!!!!
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Tripnosis
New Member
Canada
28 posts
Joined: Feb, 2007
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Posted - 2007/06/18 : 00:10:40
What's your opinion on Steinberg's Nuendo ( Steinberg also makes Cubase)
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Sk8SiM
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 2007/06/18 : 19:47:14
quote:
Originally posted by Leto:
quote:
Originally posted by Sk8SiM:
quote:
Originally posted by Influx:
The internal sound engine in fl is shit yes, but after exported to a .wav at the highest quality setting, I fail to see how you can prove there’s a difference in sound quality in the .wav file.
So, assuming that you go by the sound of the final product, not the sound while it’s still in fl, it’ll be the same.
All that hard work you put into FL though… Will never pay off… your just left with nothing! [Trust me on this one, I know first hand… you wouldn’t believe the stress I had with it]
Not just that, but the mixer interface is awful and your are limited to what a “professional” would need!
Hey guess what? Influx does have releases (vinyl and digital) in the pipeline, and is quite a professional. And you didn't hear it from him. So, don't assume you know everything. ;)
I ent knocking him one bit... I'm was just simply stating that he had defeated the object of the debate! - As a producer you can do whatever you see fit in order to get a great sounding recording! - what ever works best for him, works best for him... I was just stating the original point of the whole debate, "what is the standard - and why."
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Edited by - Sk8SiM on 2007/06/18 19:49:15 |
Underloop
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2007/06/18 : 22:57:59
Si, my point regarding the cabling is purely from an experimental perspective. The reason real world cables piss me off is because they get tangled - in the digital world they don't..... and they don't chew up processor power either (at least not that I have noticed in either Reason or Logic).
In both apps, there is default settings, which ends up wiring stuff up to a standard routing path (as in Cubase) but the option is there to experiment. Perhaps I am going OT here a bit, but this is the best selling point to me of both Reason and Logic, the modularity and flexibility of it..... to be able to wire up a synth, split off the signal, feed one through a stomp box, thena flanger, then into a mixer channel feeding the reverb off an aux, then the other orignial split straight into the desk, aux feeding a delay, which is in turn fed into a mixer channel feeding back into itself off the Aux. This signal is then split, and feeds some modulation on some other synth and, well, you get the point. Makes life a bit more interesting than a 2 layer de-tuned sawtooth witha bit of reverb on it :-) Just my experimental nature I guess.... like you say, its what suits.
Back on topic though, is there really a standard? I guess Cubase is most popular. The reason being? Well, for starters its available on both PC and Mac (big boo to Emagic for selling out to Apple!). The other packages have disadvantages:
Logic: Too complicated for some beginners to get into (but well wotrth it!) and not available on PC since Apple bought EMagic
Sonar: May have changed in recent versions, but when it first came out, no VST support!
Reason: No vocal recording capability built in
Pro Tools: Expensive and poo midi support
For this reason, most people gravitate towards Cubase, *but* within professional Hardcore producers, I'd say it was fairly mixed bag of software - Reason certainly coming up close behind Cubase
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