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Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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 Posted - 2012/01/13 : 22:37:37
I have a question for everyone here who is against downloading music (I'm not FOR downloading music, that's not what this topic is about) - All of you seem so up in arms about it, and how it's morally wrong to steal music because people put their hard music, and how some of you will alienate people here who do steal music - My question for you guys is; If it's not alright to steal music, why is it perfectly acceptable to steal samples, which sometimes would cost the artist tens of thousands of dollars to use. Some people may actually have permission (Impact working for Sony was obviously able to use the Life Your Life vocals with no problems), but I know for a fact that Bioweapon didn't phone up Eminem and get his permission to use the sample from Purple Pills for Bounce, and I know that Nosferatu definitely didn't get Royce Da 5'9's permission to use a sample from Boom, and I'm fairly certain that Scott Brown didn't get permission to use the sample from the Bloodhound Gang song The Bad Touch.
The "they're famous and don't need the money" excuse isn't viable, because then stealing Darren Styles music would be perfectly acceptable since his latest album just sold 100,000 copies, WELL more than a bunch of rap artists I know.
So will someone here who's against stealing music but is totally for stealing samples and making money off said song please explain to me how that is morally right but stealing music isn't? It seems to be a horrible double standard. And for anyone ready to say "But they don't make money of those samples", yes, they do, people have had to pay well over 100,000$ to buy a 1 second sample. Aerosmith's label wanted them to charge 50,000$ for the Dream On sample used in Eminem's Sing For The Moment, but Steven Tyler said no and let his use it for free.
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SpiritWolf
Average Member
United States
237 posts
Joined: Apr, 2010
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 22:53:45
When an artist samples music, they do steal the copyright holder's material but then they also add their own creative input into the sample. Also since hardcore is such a small scene, the original artist rarely cares. It's not like the person that sampled from them is making tons of money. On the other hand, if people fileshare hardcore, all they're doing is hurting an already small scene. If you like the music that your hearing you should support it. But that's just my opinion.
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 22:55:47
First of all, 100,000 sales isn't (or wasn't) that much, I very much doubt Darren is getting more sales than famous rappers. Interestingly I think Lady Gaga's album sold 500,000 copies and got to number one last year, that's a TINY amount for someone as famous as her.
Aaand as for the samples thing...good point really. The whole piracy, stealing, copyright stuff is such a screwed up issue. Complicated further by the internet and how sharing files isn't like stealing an item...etc etc...honestly I don't even have an opinion on the issue, that's how screwed up the whole thing is. I buy music I like, other than that I keep my head way out of the piracy issue, I don't understand the ins and outs of it, but I do find myself siding with the pirates more sometimes just because the music industry trying to shut them down is so heavy handed and messes so much stuff up.
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Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:02:36
quote:
Originally posted by SpiritWolf:
When an artist samples music, they do steal the copyright holder's material but then they also add their own creative input into the sample. Also since hardcore is such a small scene, the original artist rarely cares. It's not like the person that sampled from them is making tons of money. On the other hand, if people fileshare hardcore, all they're doing is hurting an already small scene. If you like the music that your hearing you should support it. But that's just my opinion.
It's not that the original artist doesn't care, it's that they never hear the track. If Eminem heard Bounce, and they didn't ask him to sample it, he could bring them to court and take 100% of everything that song makes. Not 50%, 100% because they used something of his without his permission. It's even worse than stealing music because they are now making money of the other person's sample, whereas stealing the music is just stealing the music.
So by your logic, if someone is putting their own twist to something, then it's fine? That would mean I could remix a Scott Brown track, and put it out on my label, make money off it, without asking him, and that would be okay? Because I'm putting my own twist to it? By your logic, that statement is true. But I know for a fact if anyone in hardcore remixed a song, and released it without the original's permission, and made money off it, the hardcore community would be all up in arms about it. So why is it okay for hardcore artists to steal samples off of rap artists or whatever other genre, but it's not okay for hardcore artists to steal samples from other hardcore artists. Like hell, look at Sharkey with the Zonkers incident, they weren't even making money off it and he bitched and complained about not being asked permission. But then if Sharkey steals a sample from a rap artist, it's okay?
All I see is double standards here. If someone can explain this WITHOUT using a double standard, them by all means, do, but I still can't see a way that someone can do this without being a total hypocrite. And please read the bolded part and take that into consideration before you respond.
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Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:05:15
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
First of all, 100,000 sales isn't (or wasn't) that much, I very much doubt Darren is getting more sales than famous rappers. Interestingly I think Lady Gaga's album sold 500,000 copies and got to number one last year, that's a TINY amount for someone as famous as her.
Aaand as for the samples thing...good point really. The whole piracy, stealing, copyright stuff is such a screwed up issue. Complicated further by the internet and how sharing files isn't like stealing an item...etc etc...honestly I don't even have an opinion on the issue, that's how screwed up the whole thing is. I buy music I like, other than that I keep my head way out of the piracy issue, I don't understand the ins and outs of it, but I do find myself siding with the pirates more sometimes just because the music industry trying to shut them down is so heavy handed and messes so much stuff up.
My favourite rap artist sells no more than 10,000 copies an album... Lloyd Banks, who's part of G-Unit (50 Cent's group, definitely famous) only sold 25,000 copies of his latest album, so yeah, comparing DS to Lady Gaga is unfair, but there are a lot of rap artists (Royce Da 59 including, who I hear sampled alot in Gabber) who don't sell shit. Lil B (to be fair is THE WORST rap artist of all time) only sold 300 copies of his latest album. That's less than a SINGLE hardcore track can sell lol.
And tbh, I'd rather hear you say you don't have an opinion on the matter then try to say I'm wrong and then have double, triple, and quadruple standards in your post.
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Edited by - Skidzorz on 2012/01/13 23:07:27 |
NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:14:00
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
First of all, 100,000 sales isn't (or wasn't) that much, I very much doubt Darren is getting more sales than famous rappers. Interestingly I think Lady Gaga's album sold 500,000 copies and got to number one last year, that's a TINY amount for someone as famous as her.
Aaand as for the samples thing...good point really. The whole piracy, stealing, copyright stuff is such a screwed up issue. Complicated further by the internet and how sharing files isn't like stealing an item...etc etc...honestly I don't even have an opinion on the issue, that's how screwed up the whole thing is. I buy music I like, other than that I keep my head way out of the piracy issue, I don't understand the ins and outs of it, but I do find myself siding with the pirates more sometimes just because the music industry trying to shut them down is so heavy handed and messes so much stuff up.
My favourite rap artist sells no more than 10,000 copies an album... Lloyd Banks, who's part of G-Unit (50 Cent's group) only sold 25,000 copies of his latest album, so yeah, comparing DS to Lady Gaga is unfair, there are a lot of rap artists (Royce Da 59 including, who I hear sampled alot in Gabber) who don't sell shit.
And tbh, I'd rather hear you say you don't have an opinion on the matter then try to say I'm wrong and then have double, triple, and quadruple standards in your post.
Whaaaat? Why so defensive?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotten_Apple_%28Lloyd_Banks_album%29
Commercial performance
Debuting at number 3 with 143,000, Banks fell more than 40,000 albums short of a chart-topping repeat[5] the album fell to number 15 the following week with sales of 49,000.[6] In its third week the album sold 25,000.[7] In its fourth week the album sold 19,000 to land at number 43 on the album chart. In its fifth week the album sold 15,000 to land at number 71 on the charts.[9] The album had sold a total of 351,000 copies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.F.M._2_%28Hunger_for_More_2%29
Commercial performance
The album debuted at number 26 on the US Billboard 200 chart[34] with first-week sales of about 45,000 units in the United States.[34][35][36] The album was under-shipped and much of the retailers were sold out; Lloyd Banks stated himself in an interview he couldn't find his album anywhere (Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc.) EMI under-shipped Bank's album. The album also peaked at number 60 on the Canadian Albums Chart. As of January 1, 2012 the album has sold 500,708 copies in the US.
^ Those are just some facts I dug up quickly. I'm not sure where you're getting 10,000 from.
I was never comparing Lady Gaga to Darren Styles, the point I'm trying to make is that record sales when Skydivin' was released were very different to record sales in 2011. So even if your favorite rapper isn't selling many records today (although evidence shows the contrary) you have to remember that album sales are crumbling.
As for double standards, I don't know what you're talking about, I gave my (fairly neutral) opinion on the subject. I don't see why you would have a problem with that considering that you posted it here with the intention of recieving replies.
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latininxtc
Advanced Member
United States
7,307 posts
Joined: Feb, 2006
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:17:41
Filesharing music hurts the label more than the artist of that track. Lady Gaga, Justing Bieber and all those other douchey pop music "artists" get a small percentage of the sales of albums and songs. Most of the profits go back to their labels. They make the majority of their money on concerts tours, sponsorships, public appearances, etc.
The only way they more per album is if they own the rights to their own material. The majority of them don't write their own lyrics, or produce the song itself, so very few artists accomplish this.
So no the artists don't care about using samples without permission as much as the labels do. And I agree it's morally wrong to use a sample without permission, just as it would be to fileshare. But like someone mentioned, UK hardcore is such a niche market most of the big name labels won't even care that much, mainly because they'll probably never hear the track.
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Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:24:10
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
First of all, 100,000 sales isn't (or wasn't) that much, I very much doubt Darren is getting more sales than famous rappers. Interestingly I think Lady Gaga's album sold 500,000 copies and got to number one last year, that's a TINY amount for someone as famous as her.
Aaand as for the samples thing...good point really. The whole piracy, stealing, copyright stuff is such a screwed up issue. Complicated further by the internet and how sharing files isn't like stealing an item...etc etc...honestly I don't even have an opinion on the issue, that's how screwed up the whole thing is. I buy music I like, other than that I keep my head way out of the piracy issue, I don't understand the ins and outs of it, but I do find myself siding with the pirates more sometimes just because the music industry trying to shut them down is so heavy handed and messes so much stuff up.
My favourite rap artist sells no more than 10,000 copies an album... Lloyd Banks, who's part of G-Unit (50 Cent's group) only sold 25,000 copies of his latest album, so yeah, comparing DS to Lady Gaga is unfair, there are a lot of rap artists (Royce Da 59 including, who I hear sampled alot in Gabber) who don't sell shit.
And tbh, I'd rather hear you say you don't have an opinion on the matter then try to say I'm wrong and then have double, triple, and quadruple standards in your post.
Whaaaat? Why so defensive?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotten_Apple_%28Lloyd_Banks_album%29
Commercial performance
Debuting at number 3 with 143,000, Banks fell more than 40,000 albums short of a chart-topping repeat[5] the album fell to number 15 the following week with sales of 49,000.[6] In its third week the album sold 25,000.[7] In its fourth week the album sold 19,000 to land at number 43 on the album chart. In its fifth week the album sold 15,000 to land at number 71 on the charts.[9] The album had sold a total of 351,000 copies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.F.M._2_%28Hunger_for_More_2%29
Commercial performance
The album debuted at number 26 on the US Billboard 200 chart[34] with first-week sales of about 45,000 units in the United States.[34][35][36] The album was under-shipped and much of the retailers were sold out; Lloyd Banks stated himself in an interview he couldn't find his album anywhere (Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc.) EMI under-shipped Bank's album. The album also peaked at number 60 on the Canadian Albums Chart. As of January 1, 2012 the album has sold 500,708 copies in the US.
^ Those are just some facts I dug up quickly. I'm not sure where you're getting 10,000 from.
I was never comparing Lady Gaga to Darren Styles, the point I'm trying to make is that record sales when Skydivin' was released were very different to record sales in 2011. So even if your favorite rapper isn't selling many records today (although evidence shows the contrary) you have to remember that album sales are crumbling.
As for double standards, I don't know what you're talking about, I gave my (fairly neutral) opinion on the subject. I don't see why you would have a problem with that considering that you posted it here with the intention of recieving replies.
I wasn't being defensive, and if I was rude I apologize. I honestly was glad you gave the response you did, and not some post filled with double standards. And I didn't meant Lloyd Banks when I said my favorite artist, I just said him after because he's another famous artist who sold horribly. By my favourite artist I meant Joe Budden, who never sells more than 15,000 copies, and is usually closer to 5000. And yeah, was talking about HFM2, not Rotten Apple which, you're right, sold over 100,000. And I didn't bring up DS to say he sold alot, I brought him up because apperently people are alright with stealing samples from rap artists because they sell "so much" (which they don't, evident by Joe Budden's numbers), yet stealing from hardcore artists isn't because they don't sell a lot. I was just showing that some hardcore artists sell more than some rap artists do.
I apologize for any misunderstanding, I wasn't trying to be defensive or rude to you in any way.
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Edited by - Skidzorz on 2012/01/13 23:25:31 |
Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:30:31
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
So no the artists don't care about using samples without permission as much as the labels do. And I agree it's morally wrong to use a sample without permission, just as it would be to fileshare. But like someone mentioned, UK hardcore is such a niche market most of the big name labels won't even care that much, mainly because they'll probably never hear the track.
You're right that most of the samplee's probably wouldn't care because hardcore is such a niche market, I was just bringing this up to see why it's morally okay to steal samples but not a full song. And doing so because "oh, they don't care" seems like a BS reason, because that's justifying something criminal because "it doesn't effect anyone". Does that mean I can steal a song by an artist if they haven't released it yet because "well, they aren't selling it, so they aren't losing money off it"?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, I just find people only care about fileshareing when it personally effects them, when it doesn't then filesharing/stealing samples/stealing music etc. becomes completely okay to do. And it seems like the only defense people have given me so far is "it's okay because they don't care", which doesn't really seem like a good reason.
Does that mean I can rape someone if they're drunk and passed out meaning they don't know about it meaning they don't care? That's the same logic. Yes, it's an extreme, but on a basic level it's the same - breaking the law but justifying it because no one cares.
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Edited by - Skidzorz on 2012/01/13 23:32:23 |
Dys7
Advanced Member
United States
1,231 posts
Joined: Nov, 2011
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:48:30
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
I know for a fact that Bioweapon didn't phone up Eminem and get his permission to use the sample from Purple Pills for Bounce
I don't have much to add to this, but I will say that Bounce was a free track.
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The above comment was likely written when I was *literally* 13, so please don't judge me too hard.
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Edited by - Dys7 on 2012/01/13 23:49:42 |
Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:50:04
quote:
Originally posted by Dys7:
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
I know for a fact that Bioweapon didn't phone up Eminem and get his permission to use the sample from Purple Pills for Bounce
I don't have much to say to this, but I will say that Bounce was a free track.
Bounce was also on GoodGreef Xtra Hard, which was sold, which means Bioweapon made money off it. But other than that, you're totally right, Bioweapon didn't make a cent off it.
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latininxtc
Advanced Member
United States
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Joined: Feb, 2006
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:50:17
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
So no the artists don't care about using samples without permission as much as the labels do. And I agree it's morally wrong to use a sample without permission, just as it would be to fileshare. But like someone mentioned, UK hardcore is such a niche market most of the big name labels won't even care that much, mainly because they'll probably never hear the track.
You're right that most of the samplee's probably wouldn't care because hardcore is such a niche market, I was just bringing this up to see why it's morally okay to steal samples but not a full song. And doing so because "oh, they don't care" seems like a BS reason, because that's justifying something criminal because "it doesn't effect anyone". Does that mean I can steal a song by an artist if they haven't released it yet because "well, they aren't selling it, so they aren't losing money off it"?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, I just find people only care about fileshareing when it personally effects them, when it doesn't then filesharing/stealing samples/stealing music etc. becomes completely okay to do. And it seems like the only defense people have given me so far is "it's okay because they don't care", which doesn't really seem like a good reason.
Does that mean I can rape someone if they're drunk and passed out meaning they don't know about it meaning they don't care? That's the same logic. Yes, it's an extreme, but on a basic level it's the same - breaking the law but justifying it because no one cares.
yea you took it to a level that I won't even touch lol
but to add to it, it's funny when we hear stories on how Scott Brown gets upset when ppl sample from his tracks and he tells them to "go produce your own music!" when in fact most of his tracks are sampled from even lesser known, or older tracks. Funny, also reminds me of this really weird French guy who was posting something he did on DJ Ham's fb page, and Brisk came along and asked him if he had the permission to use the samples. It ended with the French guy calling Brisk out for using samples on some of his tracks, and knowing he didn't go to the artist and label to ask for permission.
I mean I understand it's a small community and it doesn't hurt the conglomerate that is mainstream music, but that doesn't mean it's legal or morally ok.
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Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:53:00
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
quote:
Originally posted by latininxtc:
So no the artists don't care about using samples without permission as much as the labels do. And I agree it's morally wrong to use a sample without permission, just as it would be to fileshare. But like someone mentioned, UK hardcore is such a niche market most of the big name labels won't even care that much, mainly because they'll probably never hear the track.
You're right that most of the samplee's probably wouldn't care because hardcore is such a niche market, I was just bringing this up to see why it's morally okay to steal samples but not a full song. And doing so because "oh, they don't care" seems like a BS reason, because that's justifying something criminal because "it doesn't effect anyone". Does that mean I can steal a song by an artist if they haven't released it yet because "well, they aren't selling it, so they aren't losing money off it"?
Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, I just find people only care about fileshareing when it personally effects them, when it doesn't then filesharing/stealing samples/stealing music etc. becomes completely okay to do. And it seems like the only defense people have given me so far is "it's okay because they don't care", which doesn't really seem like a good reason.
Does that mean I can rape someone if they're drunk and passed out meaning they don't know about it meaning they don't care? That's the same logic. Yes, it's an extreme, but on a basic level it's the same - breaking the law but justifying it because no one cares.
yea you took it to a level that I won't even touch lol
but to add to it, it's funny when we hear stories on how Scott Brown gets upset when ppl sample from his tracks and he tells them to "go produce your own music!" when in fact most of his tracks are sampled from even lesser known, or older tracks. Funny, also reminds me of this really weird French guy who was posting something he did on DJ Ham's fb page, and Brisk came along and asked him if he had the permission to use the samples. It ended with the French guy calling Brisk out for using samples on some of his tracks, and knowing he didn't go to the artist and label to ask for permission.
I mean I understand it's a small community and it doesn't hurt the conglomerate that is mainstream music, but that doesn't mean it's legal or morally ok.
Yeah, I know that's WAY offbase, but when you break it down to its simplest nature, they're the same things lol.
And that's exactly my point, hardcore artists will go all bonkers on people for not asking permission to use a sample, when most of them do it all the time. I don't really mind myself, I just wanted to bring up this insane double standard.
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SpiritWolf
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United States
237 posts
Joined: Apr, 2010
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Posted - 2012/01/13 : 23:54:44
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
So by your logic, if someone is putting their own twist to something, then it's fine? That would mean I could remix a Scott Brown track, and put it out on my label, make money off it, without asking him, and that would be okay? Because I'm putting my own twist to it? By your logic, that statement is true.
I recently had an artist sample from one of my tracks and they even mocked the chord progression that was used in the song. I had no problem with it and I wouldn't even care if the artist signed it to a label. I'm sure the label that the original track was signed to would have a problem, but I didn't mind at all. Like I said: It's just my opinion on the subject.
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Dys7
Advanced Member
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Joined: Nov, 2011
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 00:11:24
quote:
Originally posted by SpiritWolf:
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
So by your logic, if someone is putting their own twist to something, then it's fine? That would mean I could remix a Scott Brown track, and put it out on my label, make money off it, without asking him, and that would be okay? Because I'm putting my own twist to it? By your logic, that statement is true.
I recently had an artist sample from one of my tracks and they even mocked the chord progression that was used in the song. I had no problem with it and I wouldn't even care if the artist signed it to a label. I'm sure the label that the original track was signed to would have a problem, but I didn't mind at all. Like I said: It's just my opinion on the subject.
Heres the issue: You may not have a problem with it, but others may.
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The above comment was likely written when I was *literally* 13, so please don't judge me too hard.
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Check out my cheesy fiddlings here:
http://soundcloud.com/dys7dj/
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Skidzorz
Senior Member
Canada
299 posts
Joined: Dec, 2008
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Posted - 2012/01/14 : 00:25:34
quote:
Originally posted by SpiritWolf:
quote:
Originally posted by Skidzorz:
So by your logic, if someone is putting their own twist to something, then it's fine? That would mean I could remix a Scott Brown track, and put it out on my label, make money off it, without asking him, and that would be okay? Because I'm putting my own twist to it? By your logic, that statement is true.
I recently had an artist sample from one of my tracks and they even mocked the chord progression that was used in the song. I had no problem with it and I wouldn't even care if the artist signed it to a label. I'm sure the label that the original track was signed to would have a problem, but I didn't mind at all. Like I said: It's just my opinion on the subject.
You don't have a problem with it, but like Dys7 said, a lot of people do. And the same people who do, are usually the ones who bitch about their own samples being stolen.
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Edited by - Skidzorz on 2012/01/14 00:30:44 |
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