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DJ-Hutchy
Senior Member
United Kingdom
355 posts
Joined: Sep, 2008
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 Posted - 2010/11/09 : 15:14:59
The thing is we got a lot of talent out there with the up n coming dj/producers, who imo are producing top quality tracks and dont get the recognition they deserve or a chance to break thru. Our scene always gets slated for being the "same old", But i do get where there coming from, all the "big boys" as we say are the same from the 90's(near on 20 years ago ffs) - Sy, unknown, dougal, hixxy, breeze, styles etc.. Im not dissing them cuz there great at what they do. But if they pushed new talent thru our scene would get better, ie, raves cus there would be more dj's not just the same at every major event, cd comps would get fresher and the westfest hardcore awards would be sooo much better!! For example Al Storm won best brekthru dj last year. But hes been around making decent tunes for donkeys years!!! Sorry for the rant but "WE NEED FRESH TALENT" in our scene. I think were the only genre who dont have new talent getting thru!!!
I WANT TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS ON THIS PLEASE....
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acidfluxxbass
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
5,000 posts
Joined: Apr, 2008
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 Posted - 2010/11/09 : 16:31:23
Hardcore isnt a 'scene' its an industry. 'The Last Supper' producers treat it like a business, and therefore its competitive, and difficult to break into.
Imagine starting a sports brand called ABC, for instance. Why would Nike, Adidas and Puma (for example) want to help/push you into the same market as themselves? ABC would be just one more competitior in a saturated market.
The thing with hardcore being 'same old same old' is that the mainstream keeps things more or less the same... If it sells, they sell more. If sales drop, they either move on to other genres, or change and try and find what people want. The diversity in the scene lies beneath the surface. You have to look into the tiniest nooks and crannies of the scene to dicover stuff like Crush On Hardcore or individuals who do things differently. Even Hardcore Underground and 75% of other artists you see getting digital sales dont do things that differently really...
This is why I brought in the 'Last Supper' reference into play. Thats all it is. A glass ceiling between the likes of us smaller DJ's and Hixxy, Gammer and so on.
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Edited by - acidfluxxbass on 2010/11/09 16:47:53 |
Wilky
Banned
United Kingdom
6,198 posts
Joined: Mar, 2008
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 17:04:37
quote:
Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
Hardcore isnt a 'scene' its an industry. 'The Last Supper' producers treat it like a business, and therefore its competitive, and difficult to break into.
Imagine starting a sports brand called ABC, for instance. Why would Nike, Adidas and Puma (for example) want to help/push you into the same market as themselves? ABC would be just one more competitior in a saturated market.
The thing with hardcore being 'same old same old' is that the mainstream keeps things more or less the same... If it sells, they sell more. If sales drop, they either move on to other genres, or change and try and find what people want. The diversity in the scene lies beneath the surface. You have to look into the tiniest nooks and crannies of the scene to dicover stuff like Crush On Hardcore or individuals who do things differently. Even Hardcore Underground and 75% of other artists you see getting digital sales dont do things that differently really...
This is why I brought in the 'Last Supper' reference into play. Thats all it is. A glass ceiling between the likes of us smaller DJ's and Hixxy, Gammer and so on.
nothing else to add as youve just hammered the nail right in...
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redwingz
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
2,483 posts
Joined: Jan, 2005
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 18:06:20
I think the Last Supper thread has been seen by most people and I think alot of people know who the people in that said topic being referred to are.....but it hasnt changed anything, and it wont, people will like who they like no matter what has happened.
Here is a quote from CLSM on that Ush topic that Acidfluxxbass has posted (its on the 2nd page)
"Darwin is the easiest example- Michael Masion 'Let me in' remix is a great example of something amazing not getting played- you could mention a few others.. Gammer for example took forever to actually get through into the mainstream wheras you could draw a parallel with say the 'fake blood' name which took about 18 months between bringing out the main big tune and then selling out clubs. Its a fascinating scenario."
So why do some people who are arguably the most technically gifted producers in the scene take so long to breakthrough? Darwin, Gammer, Al Storm and so on??
To me, its like any other music scene, its not how good you are, its who you know. I could name a fair few people who without a 'leg up' from their more recognised friends, would never be where they are at right now.
I always find it intriguing to read in CD booklets who engineers tracks....take a look, you will be surprised how often it reads a little like this:
Mr A & Mr B - Hardcore Track 1
Engineered by Mr C.
At the end of the day, its peoples jobs, and unless you are a Hixxy or Styles, you arent going to make enough money to retire at 40 years old. That still leaves you with 25 years of living before your state pension. So they all have to make as much money as they can whilst they are involved with hardcore. Hence why all big producers now run their own labels....release your own tracks on your own label, keep 100% of the money instead of 50/50 split. How many of the 'big' hardcore labels actually release anything that they really have to invest money into (excluding vinyl)?
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DJ-Hutchy
Senior Member
United Kingdom
355 posts
Joined: Sep, 2008
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 20:06:12
quote:
Originally posted by acidfluxxbass:
Hardcore isnt a 'scene' its an industry. 'The Last Supper' producers treat it like a business, and therefore its competitive, and difficult to break into.
Imagine starting a sports brand called ABC, for instance. Why would Nike, Adidas and Puma (for example) want to help/push you into the same market as themselves? ABC would be just one more competitior in a saturated market.
The thing with hardcore being 'same old same old' is that the mainstream keeps things more or less the same... If it sells, they sell more. If sales drop, they either move on to other genres, or change and try and find what people want. The diversity in the scene lies beneath the surface. You have to look into the tiniest nooks and crannies of the scene to dicover stuff like Crush On Hardcore or individuals who do things differently. Even Hardcore Underground and 75% of other artists you see getting digital sales dont do things that differently really...
This is why I brought in the 'Last Supper' reference into play. Thats all it is. A glass ceiling between the likes of us smaller DJ's and Hixxy, Gammer and so on.
Nice reply bud, & im not a member of ush so i never seen that "last supper" post. But i did enjoy the read and thanks for linkin us up with that!!!
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Triquatra
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 20:53:15
pfffffffffft theres plenty of "new" just not alot of "talent"
:P talent isnt making music that sounds the same as the last piece that was defecated out of a VST Preset list.
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Shades
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,189 posts
Joined: Dec, 2006
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 20:53:25
most of the best music is normally underground... best to be kept that way imho
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DJ-Hutchy
Senior Member
United Kingdom
355 posts
Joined: Sep, 2008
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 22:03:53
quote:
Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
pfffffffffft theres plenty of "new" just not alot of "talent"
:P talent isnt making music that sounds the same as the last piece that was defecated out of a VST Preset list.
Triquatra somethings really got you pissed off lately. So i totally disagree with you when yuo say not a lot of talent!!
Who do you like in the scene then??
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 22:45:00
alot of talents? I have to agree with Triq here :P
Al Storm isnt new. If he kept his DJ Storm alias instead maybe more would remember him :P
Like someone mentioned in the USH thread, and I will elaborate, Even if Darwin is a good producer/talent, what does that help if he just produces the same sounding music like everyone else?
rofl @ Auscore, the little twat.
Reese's post kinda pisses me off. Does that mean he only produced hardcore music because someone told him to? I might taking the piss now since I'm not a producer myself, but why doesnt he produce hardcore because he wanted to? Do you really need to become THAT famous to produce?
I guess this "hey Bob, lets record those black people moaning in songs and make some money" streak that started in 1910's has ****ed up music ever since :)
Hutchy: If you ask me, not alot of people. Most of the MP3's I've bought recently sounded good the first 4-5 time I've listened to them, but after a while they sounds generic and boring. This happens to everything, be it Hardcore or Freeform.
Heck, even the older vinyls i've bought recently have gotten more "airtime" or "eartime" than anything else
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Edited by - Samination on 2010/11/09 22:48:53 |
Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
12,837 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 23:02:00
quote:
Originally posted by DJ-Hutchy:
quote:
Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
pfffffffffft theres plenty of "new" just not alot of "talent"
:P talent isnt making music that sounds the same as the last piece that was defecated out of a VST Preset list.
Triquatra somethings really got you pissed off lately. So i totally disagree with you when yuo say not a lot of talent!!
Who do you like in the scene then??
No it's just that Hardcore is that shit currently. You won't see why because it's that very same music that your into. If you got into Hardcore in recent years then you got into it because you like how it now sounds, which is an entirely different genre from what it was. And what it was is what people like Triq, me etc were into.
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Edited by - Hard2Get on 2010/11/09 23:02:58 |
Triquatra
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2010/11/09 : 23:49:34
quote:
Originally posted by DJ-Hutchy:
Triquatra somethings really got you pissed off lately. So i totally disagree with you when yuo say not a lot of talent!!
Who do you like in the scene then??
(current in the scene at the moment) a fair bit of the stuff coming out of the NEC, Oli G, Jon Doe, Entity, Luna C and odds and ends from his digital labels, Darwins breakbeat stuff (why do i get the feeling he is deeper territory?), all sorts of bits and pieces from different artists here and there. there is the odd bit of "partycore" styled stuff i like, but its more of a case of heard one..heard em all. mostly a freeform-hardscape-breakbeat-head myself.
I started listening in 97/98 and for me the hardcore sound started to get a little stale at the start of 2006 and slowly got more and more hit and miss until the last two years where most of the rest (apart from a few and the afore mentioned others) just seems to be cookie cut producers all clambering after the same 'sound' - all pushing and shoving to try and get up and stand next to the big boys by making songs that use the same synths and sounds as there idols. barely any 'no-name' is trying anything different because they dont think they will get anywhere with it - and they probably won't.
I remember people signing up here back in 05 and saying that some of the stuff they were hearing was so new and so fresh and they'd heard nothing like before - simply because they had just gotten into hardcore so it was new and fresh to them, but had they been listening since ..well, at least when the "nu skool" style started to come in..they probably wouldnt say the same..
I would say the best thing anybody could possibily do is push themselves through on their own terms, how far one can really go when one is just making standard generic uk hardcore like the next guy - i've no idea...mind you I doubt its too far if you're just churning out "lady gaga remix" after "rihanna remix" after "cee lo green remix"
bottom line is - making hardcore these days isnt much of a talent, it just requires a small knowledge of how to illegally get a DAW, a few VSTs (pfft, why a few? nexus will cut it for these purposes) and then a couple of preset banks off KVR...they're like the"script-kiddies" of hardcore lol
Hardscape could and still could have been something exciting - but no, that would involve some sort of effort - and Hixxy would never play that!
i'm not half as angry or pissed off as you might think I am by the way - i'm just over-opinionated, and quite ready to give it when someone asks "i want to hear your views on this" ;)
can I ask a question in return of
"who are these fresh and original "talents" that arent making any headroom that you're refering to?"
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2010/11/09 23:58:56 |
tru bass
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 2010/11/10 : 00:14:38
Completely agree with you there Triq, although i'm not a fan of Hardscape :P
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2010/11/10 : 08:51:19
I didnt like the idea of Hardscape. What I loved with Hardecore and Freeform, is that they, in general, doesnt sound repeatingly the same for more than 1:30 minute before falling into a drop or something. With Hardscape, I except them to copy Hard Dance as much as possible, that is make 11 minute long songs and have 3 minute long sections before changing :P
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DJ-Hutchy
Senior Member
United Kingdom
355 posts
Joined: Sep, 2008
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Posted - 2010/11/10 : 09:23:39
quote:
Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
can I ask a question in return of
"who are these fresh and original "talents" that arent making any headroom that you're refering to?"
I think your right in a lot of things you say there tbh, and i first started listening to hardcore in 98 i was only a kid and heard toytown, liked it and started to get my hands on any tapes i could. So i have followed it thru the years. Thing is i have loved the sound of hardcore since then, there have been shit times but it got better in the end.
I really liked listening to all the "big boys" thru those years and still listen to a few of them now. Like i said im not dissing them cus i like what they do!! But i just don't understand why up n coming talent aint getting thru in the scene?
But as for your Q? I like a lot of up n coming artists!!
Triq dont think you will like them tho;)
Rescue
4orce
Alex Bassjunkie
Modulate & Pettruccio (They dont get the recognition they deserve imo)
Steven Davidson
D-Linquants
B-Tek
Stu Infinity
Hyperforce (Another one who dont get the recognition)
Nu Foundation
Defekt.....
The list goes on and on i know a couple there you might have heard of but there still not getting the big bookings...
I know you will find a few of them on cd compilations BUT still not getting thru is my point!!! I know me and u Triq will disagree on a lot of things due to our different taste of the core. But im sure that there is Talent in your style that aint getting the push that new artist's need!!!
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Torpex
Advanced Member
Poland
824 posts
Joined: Nov, 2005
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Posted - 2010/11/10 : 10:08:18
I think you'll want to reconsider what you mean by "break through" or "get through" though.
From an outside perspective, 90% of the UK hardcore event market in the UK is controlled by just 2 promoters: HTID and Slammin Vinyl. Both organizations are rather small. Every event has a certain amount of money to divide between artists. If you happen to be making a living from hardcore, you can't afford to go below a certain payout level, which means there's only so many people who can share the pie. They also need to share it regularly and the pie itself seems to be dwindling on both the bookings (events are less busy) and the licensing (albums sell less) sides. I'm sure you can figure out the rest.
Solution? Look elsewhere. The last Freeformation event was amazing and very busy. True, it only takes place once or twice a year, but it shows what can be done. Hardcore Underground events, while smaller, also seem to be going in the right direction. More and more promoters seem to be taking a hint that doing their own thing and building their own brand is better than copying the big formula (which won't work nearly as well in a smaller format).
Lastly, I think the balance between bookings and building your presence in other ways (albums, social media, getting personal with your fanbase) is shifting in favour of the latter. It's a massive chance for the overlooked up & comers, some of whom haven't really been up & coming for a while now.
Or maybe I'm completely wrong. :)
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DJ-Hutchy
Senior Member
United Kingdom
355 posts
Joined: Sep, 2008
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Posted - 2010/11/10 : 10:52:25
quote:
Originally posted by Torpex:
I think you'll want to reconsider what you mean by "break through" or "get through" though.
From an outside perspective, 90% of the UK hardcore event market in the UK is controlled by just 2 promoters: HTID and Slammin Vinyl. Both organizations are rather small. Every event has a certain amount of money to divide between artists. If you happen to be making a living from hardcore, you can't afford to go below a certain payout level, which means there's only so many people who can share the pie. They also need to share it regularly and the pie itself seems to be dwindling on both the bookings (events are less busy) and the licensing (albums sell less) sides. I'm sure you can figure out the rest.
Solution? Look elsewhere. The last Freeformation event was amazing and very busy. True, it only takes place once or twice a year, but it shows what can be done. Hardcore Underground events, while smaller, also seem to be going in the right direction. More and more promoters seem to be taking a hint that doing their own thing and building their own brand is better than copying the big formula (which won't work nearly as well in a smaller format).
Lastly, I think the balance between bookings and building your presence in other ways (albums, social media, getting personal with your fanbase) is shifting in favour of the latter. It's a massive chance for the overlooked up & comers, some of whom haven't really been up & coming for a while now.
Or maybe I'm completely wrong. :)
Good Post bud. And yeah sorry about that when i mean Break through i mean Getting into the scene!!! Sorry about that!! My Bad :P
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