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Wilky
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 Posted - 2008/12/14 : 12:30:02
quote:
com⋅mer⋅cial /kəˈmɜrʃəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuh-mur-shuhl] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of commerce.
2. engaged in commerce.
3. prepared, done, or acting with sole or chief emphasis on salability, profit, or success: a commercial product; His attitude toward the theater is very commercial.
4. able to yield or make a profit: We decided that the small oil well was not commercial.
5. suitable or fit for a wide, popular market: Communications satellites are gradually finding a commercial use.
6. suitable for or catering to business rather than private use: commercial kitchen design; commercial refrigeration.
7. (of a vehicle or its use) a. engaged in transporting passengers or goods for profit.
b. civilian and public, as distinguished from military or private.
8. not entirely or chemically pure: commercial soda.
9. catering esp. to traveling salespeople by offering reduced rates, space for exhibiting products, etc.: a commercial hotel.
10. (in U.S. government grading of beef) graded between standard and utility.
11. paid for by advertisers: commercial television.
–noun 12. Radio and Television. a paid advertisement or promotional announcement.
13. (in U.S. government grading of beef) a. a low-quality grade of beef between standard and utility.
b. a cut of beef of this grade.
14. British Informal. a traveling salesperson.
if you would like to argue your case that it hasnt always been commercial or most of it is now but only the stuff you like isnt then fire away... but if you dont have proof as in writing then your case is not permitted in this thread.
Factual only please, mine above is taken from dictionary.com... yes it dusnt stae that hardcore is commercial, but that is the definition of commercial ala hardcore!!!
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Future_Shock
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 12:44:43
I think the "commercial" everyone is referring to is the action of marketing and producing hardcore for mass appeal, resulting in larger profit margins.
This is all well and good, but some people feel that as an underground genre, revenue shouldn't be a part of it, and yes artists are entitled to some payment for what they do, but that shouldn't be what it's about.
They feel it should be about the love of the music first and foremost.
The commercial aspect people are referring to are "watered down" content. Not as fast, not as hard, and generally not what they got into hardcore for in the first place.
Technically speaking, judging by that definition, EVERYTHING is commercial because EVERYTHING can be sold - even for an EXTREMELY minimal amount of money.
People are referring to the extremely large jump in the commercial activities of hardcore in general, not being technically specific arguing about the definition of commercial.
You missed the mark.
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Wilky
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 12:48:42
quote:
Originally posted by Andy_Influx:
I think the "commercial" everyone is referring to is the action of marketing and producing hardcore for mass appeal, resulting in larger profit margins.
This is all well and good, but some people feel that as an underground genre, revenue shouldn't be a part of it, and yes artists are entitled to some payment for what they do, but that shouldn't be what it's about.
They feel it should be about the love of the music first and foremost.
The commercial aspect people are referring to are "watered down" content. Not as fast, not as hard, and generally not what they got into hardcore for in the first place.
Technically speaking, judging by that definition, EVERYTHING is commercial because EVERYTHING can be sold - even for an EXTREMELY minimal amount of money.
People are referring to the extremely large jump in the commercial activities of hardcore in general, not being technically specific arguing about the definition of commercial.
You missed the mark.
i havnt missed any mark, as you said everything can be sold therefore commercial.
as for making hardcore for money, what about the producers whose only job is making music? yea they make it for the money, all part of business my friend
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Underloop
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 13:01:48
Oooo controversial!!!
I think you are right Wilky, but in the same breath I think you are wrong. There are elements of Hardcore which are commercial, and there always have been. But there are also pockets where it is purely for the love of the music. I would argue the same about any other genre, INCLUDING POP!
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Future_Shock
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 13:06:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wilky:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy_Influx:
I think the "commercial" everyone is referring to is the action of marketing and producing hardcore for mass appeal, resulting in larger profit margins.
This is all well and good, but some people feel that as an underground genre, revenue shouldn't be a part of it, and yes artists are entitled to some payment for what they do, but that shouldn't be what it's about.
They feel it should be about the love of the music first and foremost.
The commercial aspect people are referring to are "watered down" content. Not as fast, not as hard, and generally not what they got into hardcore for in the first place.
Technically speaking, judging by that definition, EVERYTHING is commercial because EVERYTHING can be sold - even for an EXTREMELY minimal amount of money.
People are referring to the extremely large jump in the commercial activities of hardcore in general, not being technically specific arguing about the definition of commercial.
You missed the mark.
i havnt missed any mark, as you said everything can be sold therefore commercial.
as for making hardcore for money, what about the producers whose only job is making music? yea they make it for the money, all part of business my friend
Hardcore isn't extremely profitable, and unless you're VERY successful, hardcore doesn't pay the bills. Which is why lots of producers produce different genres which are more profitable.
You can't be in hardcore for the money coz there is **** all.
Thats what people are upset about, people making really pop culture hardcore to make it more profitable... like remixes of pop songs etc...
You're not right, because you've just proven you don't know what you're talking about and now you're clinging to the idea.
YES, by definition, hardcore is commercial, but there isnt ONE definition of commercial, as your post stated. People are getting ticked off at one SPECIFIC definition... It falls into two definitions (or more) therefore it has always been commercial, but the definition you are talking about, is not what people are talking about.
You're saying hardcore has always been commercial because you CAN make some money from it.
Thats not what people are arguing, therefore its irrelevent.
3. prepared, done, or acting with sole or chief emphasis on salability, profit, or success: a commercial product; His attitude toward the theater is very commercial.
THATS what people are getting pissed off about. And NO, hardcore has NOT always followed that definition. It still doesn't today. I produce hardcore (and have tracks signed) and i don't even have a publisher, ergo, im not even going to get any money from it.
Your whole argument is irrelevent because it has nothing to do with what people are talking about.
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Wilky
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 13:17:27
wrong! a small number of people are very succsesful in hardcore and do make quite a bit of money out of it.
unless u produce tracks and then give them away free u wudnt come under the commercial tag!
your tracks wil in time make you money.
i dont know what im talking about because im not in the same thinkin mind as u? get a grip
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Triquatra
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 13:31:27
quote:
5. hidden or secret; not open: underground political activities.
6. published or produced by political or social radicals or nonconformists: an underground newspaper.
7. avant-garde; experimental: an underground movie.
8. critical of or attacking the established society or system: underground opinion.
9. of or for nonconformists; unusual: an underground vegetarian restaurant.
–noun 10. the place or region beneath the surface of the ground.
13. (often initial capital letter) a movement or group existing outside the establishment and usually reflecting unorthodox, avant-garde, or radical views.
from the same site - dictionary.com - i think we can applie the same logic milky used to this, as this could have been applied to hardcore at one time - but due to recent topics and events, not anymore :)
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2008/12/14 13:33:08 |
Future_Shock
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 13:44:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wilky:
wrong! a small number of people are very succsesful in hardcore and do make quite a bit of money out of it.
Prove it.
I'm a producer, i know what the advances are, i know what the sales are like.
You can seriously count on one hand the amount of people making decent money from it... they still won't be making "quite a bit of money" either.
If hardcore paid well darren styles wouldn't be doing commercial dance and electro.
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Smoogie
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 Posted - 2008/12/14 : 13:50:03
Pengo was commercial in some ways but the Hardcore edits where not.
I doubt that most of the early Gaber I listen to was commercial though. Anyone know of a radio edit for Short Circuit- **** me? It is an early Gaber/Hoover classic & far from 'commercial'
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Wilky
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 14:26:08
quote:
Originally posted by Andy_Influx:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilky:
wrong! a small number of people are very succsesful in hardcore and do make quite a bit of money out of it.
Prove it.
I'm a producer, i know what the advances are, i know what the sales are like.
You can seriously count on one hand the amount of people making decent money from it... they still won't be making "quite a bit of money" either.
If hardcore paid well darren styles wouldn't be doing commercial dance and electro.
its called gettin his name out to the masses - people like his dance/house stuff then they may look into his hardcore then other peoples hardcore stuff!
for a start, you aint a well known producer yea. fair play you are one but in our small scene are virtually uknown!
your analagy about darren styles was crap mate. richard branson would have stopped after a few million by your logic.
feel free to try again
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Trimms
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 14:41:17
So that means Egg & Cheese Hot Pockets are also commercial? Hmm...
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Future_Shock
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 14:42:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wilky:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy_Influx:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilky:
wrong! a small number of people are very succsesful in hardcore and do make quite a bit of money out of it.
Prove it.
I'm a producer, i know what the advances are, i know what the sales are like.
You can seriously count on one hand the amount of people making decent money from it... they still won't be making "quite a bit of money" either.
If hardcore paid well darren styles wouldn't be doing commercial dance and electro.
its called gettin his name out to the masses - people like his dance/house stuff then they may look into his hardcore then other peoples hardcore stuff!
for a start, you aint a well known producer yea. fair play you are one but in our small scene are virtually uknown!
your analagy about darren styles was crap mate. richard branson would have stopped after a few million by your logic.
feel free to try again
*rolls eyes*
Hardcore DOESNT sell a lot of units. Its not opinion.
Anyway this isnt even the point.
The point is yes by SOME definitions its always been commercial.
The commerciality people are complaining about has nothing to do with those definitions though. And the one they ARE complaining about HASNT always been present.
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Underloop
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 15:19:47
At the end of the day does it matter?
I listen to what I like - I don't give a damn about what it does to my credibility. Hell, I get grief for listening to "chav" music amongst my peers whether it be Darren Styles, Producer or CLSM. And yes, I have had Stylesy's album on (both CDs) in the car alot recently as it is proper feel good music.
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Future_Shock
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 15:26:08
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
At the end of the day does it matter?
I listen to what I like - I don't give a damn about what it does to my credibility. Hell, I get grief for listening to "chav" music amongst my peers whether it be Darren Styles, Producer or CLSM. And yes, I have had Stylesy's album on (both CDs) in the car alot recently as it is proper feel good music.
Not in the slightest its just a discussion... I'm not getting fired up about it.
I listen to all kinds of hardcore and how i feel about it is the same as how i feel about ALL music..... musically if its good, i like it.
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Wilky
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 15:46:46
quote:
Originally posted by Andy_Influx:
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
At the end of the day does it matter?
I listen to what I like - I don't give a damn about what it does to my credibility. Hell, I get grief for listening to "chav" music amongst my peers whether it be Darren Styles, Producer or CLSM. And yes, I have had Stylesy's album on (both CDs) in the car alot recently as it is proper feel good music.
Not in the slightest its just a discussion... I'm not getting fired up about it.
I listen to all kinds of hardcore and how i feel about it is the same as how i feel about ALL music..... musically if its good, i like it.
same with me. its time the record was put straight that hardcore is & always has been of the commercial flavor. however, i do accept that some hardcore is of the underground flavor but most of it is/has been commercial
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Meathead
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Posted - 2008/12/14 : 16:24:53
Well done Wilky you've found and can quote from the pages of Dictionary.com. But you have well and truly missed the mark as Influx has said.
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