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SixFeet
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
2,285 posts
Joined: Jan, 2005
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 Posted - 2009/03/28 : 00:11:10
quote:
Originally posted by TheOneNOnly:
quote:
Originally posted by rosin007:
The only solution for the world is equality. And what americans fear the most; socialism and even communism.
I had to say something on this comment.
Look at what our government is doing, and the actions it's taking. We are more socialist now, then we are capitalist. We are a mixed economy, yes. But our government gives "bail-outs" and takes claims within companies (AIG is a big example 80% of it owned by Government). Every action our government takes towards our economy is socialist; if we where pure capitalist the government would leave our market to itself, and only serve to protect us from ourselves, and others. Which they don't, they take huge actions with our economy.
It is not communism because we still have free market, free trade, and free enterprise. But there is in no way in hell could we say we don't have socialist actions within our government.
You clearly don't know the definition of Socialism. USA isn't capitalist anymore? Is that why you have several companies that make more per annum than most countries on this planet?
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TheOneNOnly
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United States
1,937 posts
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Posted - 2009/03/28 : 01:41:55
quote:
Originally posted by SixFeet:
quote:
Originally posted by TheOneNOnly:
quote:
Originally posted by rosin007:
The only solution for the world is equality. And what americans fear the most; socialism and even communism.
I had to say something on this comment.
Look at what our government is doing, and the actions it's taking. We are more socialist now, then we are capitalist. We are a mixed economy, yes. But our government gives "bail-outs" and takes claims within companies (AIG is a big example 80% of it owned by Government). Every action our government takes towards our economy is socialist; if we where pure capitalist the government would leave our market to itself, and only serve to protect us from ourselves, and others. Which they don't, they take huge actions with our economy.
It is not communism because we still have free market, free trade, and free enterprise. But there is in no way in hell could we say we don't have socialist actions within our government.
You clearly don't know the definition of Socialism. USA isn't capitalist anymore? Is that why you have several companies that make more per annum than most countries on this planet?
You do realize socialism allows free market as well right?
Capitalism is DEFINED by the market it FREE and nothing more. That the government does NOT interact, and interfere with the market and economy in anyway. This is opposite of everything the united states government is doing. They are giving bail outs, taking stakes within companies, and is setting standards for all of our companies.
You don't understand it, apparently.
This is why socialism and communism are different, because of the free trade/free market, and free enterprise. The US is more socialist then capitalist at this point, whether the citizens see it or not. Again, we're still "mixed" but more socialist then people seem to believe.
~~
And sorry Triquatra, I did read all of it. Just had to say something on this.
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Edited by - TheOneNOnly on 2009/03/28 01:44:06 |
Triquatra
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Posted - 2009/03/28 : 08:12:18
lol its fine, seeing as he hasnt answered any of the questions or posts everyone put up, it doesnt look as though he's going to either - so carry on!
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SixFeet
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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Posted - 2009/03/28 : 18:59:00
quote:
Originally posted by TheOneNOnly:
You do realize socialism allows free market as well right?
Capitalism is DEFINED by the market it FREE and nothing more. That the government does NOT interact, and interfere with the market and economy in anyway. This is opposite of everything the united states government is doing. They are giving bail outs, taking stakes within companies, and is setting standards for all of our companies.
You don't understand it, apparently.
This is why socialism and communism are different, because of the free trade/free market, and free enterprise. The US is more socialist then capitalist at this point, whether the citizens see it or not. Again, we're still "mixed" but more socialist then people seem to believe.
The government intervenes in all aconomic societies. The government taxing you right now? That's them interacting. I do know socialism because I am one and wanting it to finally get advocated.
"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society, and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society. Therefore socialists advocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly based."
Everything in your country is privately owned. The Federal Reserve that prints your money is privately owned, health care, education system, water, electricity, prison system etc etc etc are all privately owned.
You have the worlds highest poverty rates for 1st world countries and the rates have increased dramatically over the last decade, yet you're socialist?
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Triquatra
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Posted - 2009/03/28 : 19:51:32
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty06/pov06hi.html
according to the census. they havent increased dramatically over the last decade...
and according to this study:
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/4669/
america come out 12th, with the netherlands placing first as far as % in poverty...
UK come 8th, so we're doing much worst than the USA...
not saying your wrong about the whole socialist thing at all - just felt i had to point that one out.
the UK have far more socialist aspects than the USA..
im not sure if you can really say "your poverty problem is because you arent socialist enough" (sounds like its out of some crappy michael moore movie haha) i think the figures dont nessiciary point to that..and i dont think that's what you were exactly trying to say
its pretty clear that the whole capitalist thing isnt working out too good at the moment (lol)
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2009/03/28 20:04:42 |
Livingdeadgirl
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United Kingdom
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Joined: Mar, 2009
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Posted - 2009/03/28 : 20:34:25
I guess that the current economy problems are causing all the new questions into our immigration policy. I recently got made redundant, I was working as an electrical engineer for a building services consultancy. The company was Australian and there were a lot of people working there that had come from Australia, New Zealand, South aftrica, India ect. At first I confess I did feel a bit sorry for myself losing my job when other people on working holiday visa's and stuff were still employed but its been a month and i'm starting a new job and have had loads of interest and interviews from various engineering companies. England still needs engineers it seems even going into this recession. I can't say how things are going to be in a years time and I guess thats the worrie, but my friend from NZ tells me that they are planning on tightening the rules for non EU applications from next year.
Immigration from the EU is something that we can't control at the moment. If Polish people will work for less than English people think its worth their time to get out of bed for then they will get the jobs. Maybe increasing minimum wage would help? I'm afraid I don't have any radical answers but its an interesting topic and I think immigration problems are completely different to terrorist problems.
Terrorism is a threat but its a threat from radicalized british Muslims as much as immigrants. And the chaps that tried to drive a car full of explosives into glasgow airport were doctors I believe? I think Bristolboy said doctors were ok? Basically my point is that you can't debate the topics of immigration and terrorism as the same thing.
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hardcore anorak
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Posted - 2009/03/29 : 00:12:02
agreed but another point i will ask every brit on here what do u guys feel like when u see some terrorist preacher gobbing off in our capital whilst all of our hard earned money is going in his pocket benefits/tax credits etc ec and some English familys struggle to even get anything on benefit
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Triquatra
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Posted - 2009/03/29 : 10:19:41
i kinda feel the same as when i find out that some white-trash chav family are getting 20'000 in benefits a year and not working at all.
immigrants pay taxes as well - so its thier hard earned cash thats getting abused, and it pisses them off as much as it does everyone else, and on top of that they're pissed off because the actions of a few individuals are painting a bad image of them (much like football hooligans in other countries do for us brits)
just because of the actions of a few individuals it doesnt mean i want all immigrants/persons of non-white origin out of this country like the BNP do.
just because i see 5 drunken football/chav yobs outside a club giving it all "E Looked at me fooney" doesnt mean i think all british people are like that.
bristolboy allready told us that
quote:
Originally posted by bristolboy05:
(bottom line is i dont like em)"
which is the bottom line reason he follows the BNP, and also why no amount of facts or figures would change his mind.., apparently, he belives that if we throw out all the muslims/blacks/indians/everyone of non-white/british ethnic origin - that will stop terrorism...you believe this also?
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2009/03/29 10:36:35 |
SixFeet
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Posted - 2009/03/29 : 11:10:04
quote:
Originally posted by DjTriquatra:
http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/4669/
america come out 12th, with the netherlands placing first as far as % in poverty...
UK come 8th, so we're doing much worst than the USA...
not saying your wrong about the whole socialist thing at all - just felt i had to point that one out.
the UK have far more socialist aspects than the USA..
im not sure if you can really say "your poverty problem is because you arent socialist enough" (sounds like its out of some crappy michael moore movie haha) i think the figures dont nessiciary point to that..and i dont think that's what you were exactly trying to say
its pretty clear that the whole capitalist thing isnt working out too good at the moment (lol)
If ya read the document mate it says the EU and US use different methods on how to calculate poverty. The EU use the Laeken method whilst the US use the Orshansky method. When the US is calculated using the Laeken method it comes out on the bottom regularly according to the tables at the bottom of the PDF document. It is certainly a country of huge vast differences in income. Several US corporations are in the top 50 economic powers in the world beating alot of developed countries GDP.
Triq I'm not saying if socialism came in we'd all be holding hands singing hymns and be at one. Personally I'm a Socialist/Libertarian. But capitalism really favours stepping on top of one another, there's very few jobs that are available with a very good wage. It's a cut throat world under capitalism, with very few highly paid jobs and so many people are simply left behind. Socialism allieviates the pressure of the peple left behind whilst still keeping the high paid jobs alluring. I don't see why people who are struggling to make it from pay cheque to pay cheque should be taxed the same as someone making several million a year.
I cannot either see how privatised public services help either. All countries should have public health care, education systems, public transport systems. It's a huge benefit for all. They're their to say "No matter your background or your economic status, you will all be treated equally."
As far as USA is concerned I wouldn't even call it Capitalist anymore. It's pretty much a Corporatist country. Almost all your services are privately owned, your government has hidden agendas that are pushed by the lobbyists of corporations that back their presidential campaigns.
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Triquatra
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Posted - 2009/03/29 : 11:39:56
mmm, but that document (the pdf) is measuring the poverty % using the same method even though the countrys have different ways of measuring it, and the US still arent the #1 worst ratio country..
if we're getting into public services and more specifically the NHS, there are pros and cons to both systems and i would say its tricky to say just which is better, whislt "universal" health care does do its job, i still pay for my medication's (if i need any, which i dont, rather i pay for my partners medications) and we enjoy huge waiting lists, and find it terribly hard to get a dentist! (perhaps we should import some more muslms? ;) ) and much much much higher taxes.
like you said about people in the USA without insurance not getting any healthcare, that one is a bit of a purpetuated myth ie:
"As part of the 1988 Universal Health Care Law, hospitals and health centers are required to provide free and/or reduced cost care to uninsured and underinsured people, regardless of citizenship or immigrant status. ."
wiki has a little more info on this, with all the sources cited:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care#United_States
so wheres in the states, you wont have to wait, they enjoy a much higher satisfaction rate with their medical system and healthcare, but on the downside, if you dont have insurance from your job, its going to cost you alot of money if somthing goes wrong - or even just to see a doctor.
medical stuffs aside, the public services are publicly funded through taxes - police etc etc
found this list about socialism and the USA
http://www.xomba.com/top_10_ways_u_s_already_socialist_country
i had to go to the hospital the second year i lived in the states, and it cost me $250 in the end, and i didnt get anything out of it other than "yeah...you have a bruise" - which was what i already knew!
so in this respect, the medical system failed me because i had no insurance at the time - however, its soo freekin cheep to live over there because i was paying pittance for food, gas and just to own a car.
back in england im paying somethinglike £15 for perscription medication and yet still paying thorugh the nose via taxes, and i had to pay £45 on the NHS for my lady to get a consultation and work on teeth on the NHS
so other than the drain on our taxes, i would say a few other things for privatised is better medical care - ours because its govenment funded - its govenment cut as well, american hospitals do blow ours out of the water lol back in the states when you go into a hospital you are treated more like a respected customer than just a number - if you dont like their service - you're just going to go somewhere else, so they want to make you feel happy..then theres the whole NHS list thing..waiting lists ect ect
its no real secret that people arent that happy with the NHS these days
all that said - im not saying i am in favour of privatised healthcare i just wanted to put forward some of the benefits :) (of course there are still cons!)
and are you saying our govenment doesnt have hidden agendas and doesnt use huge amounts of taxpayer money to fund second homes and travel/food/loan/bills expenses? :P
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2009/03/29 12:14:19 |
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