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The drunken scotsman
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,486 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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 Posted - 2017/06/28 : 22:33:39
Wasn't ever up for this anyway, but I'm team Skarr after watching that 😂
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djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2017/06/28 : 23:18:08
quote:
Originally posted by arpz:
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
I'm out.
What flipped it for you? (I did try and find your original stance on it but got bored with scrolling past 100s of skarr posts) I wasn't exactly loving the video, it just felt like an attempt at manipulating me, 'only the REAL hardcore will want this' etc. Like come on...
I do think it'll be good but it feels even more like the money is the 100% most important thing about this, the increasing prices for the payment plans, the repeated reminders that *yes* they will know who have logged into the site and finally, the fact that despite it being 'limited' and 'only the right people' while simultaneously there's absolutely no mention of how limited it will be and in fact everything about it seems to be about getting as many people on board as possible.
It looks like Hattrix has some knowledge of internet/affiliate marketing, the email opt-in's, landing page, enrollment options and just the overall feel of it feels like one of those funnels designed to get your details and ultimately end in a conversion, not that it really matters but it doesn't have that 'in it together' feel I got from dealing with Ham.
You've pretty much summed up my thoughts perfectly.
I was originally sceptical but slightly more interested after Hattrixx came and made some good points and explained a few things .
Now, I'm firmly in the 'feeling slightly insulted/money is their motivation' camp.
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Taking my time to perfect the beat
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Owen P
Average Member
United Kingdom
154 posts
Joined: Nov, 2005
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Posted - 2017/06/28 : 23:42:14
quote:
Originally posted by arpz:
I do think it'll be good but it feels even more like the money is the 100% most important thing about this
The quality of the music is the 100% most important thing about this. When all is said and done, we want to be able to look back on this album and feel extremely proud of what we've accomplished. These tracks will be playable for a long long time. Money comes and goes, neither of us are short of finances. He's still playing out every weekend, I'm coming into my 10th year at the studio I'm in, and doing very well.
The reason why we put that video message up is because we have way too many people registered (over 500, we're cutting it off at around 200 depending on which plans people take), and we've had some people send us emails thinking it's a stompy happy hardcore compilation album on vinyl and mad stuff like that.
The money is an important factor in a way, though. Apart from the fact that it's not cheap to make an album the way we're doing it, I think what we're offering is of great value to the right person. We've had lots of very positive feedback on the project (and lots of negative feedback, granted - we knew we were in for a mixed response!). We don't want any disappointed ducks when we drop the music, that would be disastrous, obviously. Hence we've attempted to reach a broad number of people and now we're whittling down to just those who understand what they're gonna get.
Also we don't want big groups to take up seats that could be taken by super enthusiastic individuals. We're not automatically gonna say no to every group application, but we just wanna know who you are and why you're splitting. Hence the disclaimers. We know it'll put a lot of people off, that's the idea.
quote:
It looks like Hattrix has some knowledge of internet/affiliate marketing, the email opt-in's, landing page, enrollment options and just the overall feel of it feels like one of those funnels designed to get your details and ultimately end in a conversion, not that it really matters
That's just because we've used a bunch of services (Zapier, Stripe, AWeber, MailChimp, Zippy, LeadPages, Megaphone, Vimeo, etc) as part of delivering a smooth experience. Even with all that tech and automation it's been a LOT of work behind the scenes. It's necessary to deliver this in the way I feel it needs to be done, however. I don't have any interest/background in all that affiliate nonsense. Cheesy as it sounds, I'm here for the music!
I know it's cocky of me to say, but I guarantee you if you're into the early Vibes stuff, you're going to be blown away with what we have in store. We have a trick or two up the sleeve (or under the hat?) that nobody sees coming. You can quote me on that.
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http://www.hattrixx.co.uk/
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arpz
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,267 posts
Joined: Aug, 2012
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Posted - 2017/06/28 : 23:48:45
If there's anyone left that'll go in with me then I suppose we'll get our proposed group buy details to you asap but it's not looking very promising... fair enough though, hope it turns out well for you
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soundcloud - http://soundcloud.com/arpz // site -
http://arps.io
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DJ_FunDaBounce
Advanced Member
Colombia
1,913 posts
Joined: Nov, 2001
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 02:24:53
I'm sorry to have to say "no" to this deal. and I will add that it's a bit worrisome that the more established players have to recurr to this method. For us who do our best "for a couple hours a night" to get ahead in this game, this just took a wrong turn.
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"Fun with a capital F-D-B!"
https://soundcloud.com/fundabouncedj
https://brightspeedrecordings.bandcamp.com
Every Saturday night from 10-12 (Bogota/Colombia time)
https://www.twitch.tv/fundabouncedj
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The drunken scotsman
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,486 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 05:36:21
Not trying to be funny, but what reasons are you expecting people to give for grouping up, other than the extremely obvious one of not being able to afford ?125 plus? It's like a job interview, testing people's answers to see if they're worthy of joining.
As I've mentioned, I was never up for this as I've never been into this style. I did get the Ham album though and was very happy with it. But that seemed a much better process. He didn't need to advertise all of these additional bonuses - it really was all about the music. This does come across as a little desperate.
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Mickey Init
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
764 posts
Joined: Oct, 2012
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 06:35:37
I'm also out. Far more complicated than it needs to be with no definitive outline. This album would be a more a novelty thing for me than a 'OMG I need dis' album.
These projects are a bit like gay dating - you get led along for 6 months and once you've been shafted the messages suddenly stop.
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"Like bread to marmalade... Vinylgroover with the crossfade!" - MC Freestyle
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Elipton
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,268 posts
Joined: Apr, 2013
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 06:42:59
This has become very 'Dragon's Den', but I'm also out.
Since you're kindly interacting with us, Owen, could I ask a question?
Do you think this type of mega-money project is good for the Hardcore 'scene' in the long run?
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Edited by - Elipton on 2017/06/29 06:43:59 |
Rodz90
Average Member
United Kingdom
208 posts
Joined: Sep, 2012
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 06:49:41
The whole idea is laughable.
As with the Ham project, this just excludes people and doesn't push the music as a whole forward in any way.
The idea that you are going to know where and when people logged in from different places is again laughable. The majority of the time it will work, but i can guarantee you i could pass on an access token or whatever token tech you are using in conjunction with a VPN to spoof my way around what you think is a definite way of checking people are using the site to your terms.
A decent alternative way of setting this up, is to use the Blu the Roof model. You get the interest, you get the funding, and you don't have to keep it exclusive. Even if you don't use one of the many kickstarter site. Keep the splash page you've designed, and think about the distribution differently, with set goals.
I can't see why these projects need to be kept exclusive. If someone can convince me of that, i'm ready to listen.
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,072 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 07:51:56
quote:
Originally posted by Elipton:
This has become very 'Dragon's Den', but I'm also out.
Since you're kindly interacting with us, Owen, could I ask a question?
Do you think this type of mega-money project is good for the Hardcore 'scene' in the long run?
I'd want to know as well. I had a private conversation with Owen for other reason, but he mentioned something of relevance there. If he wont come out about it himself, I will. (I'm not trying to drum up suspense here, but I dont think the answer was good).
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2017/06/29 07:59:12 |
Owen P
Average Member
United Kingdom
154 posts
Joined: Nov, 2005
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 08:21:41
quote:
Originally posted by Mickey Init:
This album would be a more a novelty thing for me than a 'OMG I need dis' album.
Then, with respect, we've successfully screened you out. If you're not on the OMG list then you probably wouldn't be happy with the purchase. It's better for everyone if we only sell to those for who this is a fantastic deal. That's not everyone, we knew that going in.
For those that are 'on the OMG list', we're going to deliver something beyond what I can convey here in words. Shane and I ourselves are 'on the OMG list', and we'll be the hardest bods to satisfy.
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http://www.hattrixx.co.uk/
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Owen P
Average Member
United Kingdom
154 posts
Joined: Nov, 2005
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 09:32:42
quote:
Originally posted by Elipton:
Since you're kindly interacting with us, Owen, could I ask a question?
Do you think this type of mega-money project is good for the Hardcore 'scene' in the long run?
You can ask me whatever you want, I'm open.
So is it good for the scene?
I could argue yes, but I could also argue no. There are pros and cons, but ultimately time will tell. Let me give you some more detail on my thoughts, though, as this is a very important question.
#1 Despite the fear mongering, I don't think we're gonna see many of these projects in the future. They're not big money spinners, they're difficult to organise, not many artists could draw in enough numbers to make it worthwhile, it puts a lot of pressure on the artist as their whole reputation is at stake.
In DJ Ham's case, he was the pioneer. I can't speak on his behalf, of course, but I get the impression he didn't realise how much work would be involved. It was just something he wanted to try out. I think to a point he was figuring it all out as he went along (in a good way).
I spoke to Ham around the time of his release and I asked him if he knew of other artists who'd follow suit. He told me nobody he knew wanted to do it. It was only after that conversation that it occurred to me that there was an opportunity for me and Shane. But when I say opportunity...... You have to understand I mean in a musical sense. It's not as great a business opportunity as it may appear from the outside.
For this reason, I don't think it'll make much much difference.
#2 The exclusivity changes the rules significantly. Assuming the integrity is there, it means better music. Listening to Ham's album, you can tell a lot of love went into it. Some of those piano lines are absolutely sublime. There's a slower track on there that sounds like it would smash up the airwaves if he'd released it commercially instead of privately. And there are some *ahem* "sound sources" *cough* on there that you'd never get away with going through the normal channels.
This is what really turned me on to the idea, the creative freedom. Shane and I know full well and are open about the fact that his best stuff was with Wishdokta, back when it was predominantly sample-based music. And my proudest tracks are the ones I spent loads of time on. For example, I put a solid month into JUST the drums on the Luna-C Piano Confusion Hattrixx remix. I could actually achieve that kind of thing much quicker now, but my point is: the freedom to spend the necessary time on what's important to me as an artist is a rare luxury. I'm glad I did it that way because 10 years later I still enjoy the remix, but I wish I'd had more opportunities like that in the last 10 years.
In my view, any opportunity for an artist to produce music on their own terms is a great thing. It means the music can be more special. I mean..... If I really wanted to, I could throw an album together in a day. That's if there was no integrity and no quality control. I could even do an average quality album in a month. The reason we're giving ourselves until December to deliver is because we're going all out. We want to produce a master piece. That's why I'm so hypey... We've wanted to do something in this style for 12+ years but not had the opportunity until right now. We've really thought deeply about how it needs to be done to be done right and I've tested some wild writing/production techniques that are unlike anything anyone else can/would offer. The music is going to be inconceivably good (IF you're into that stuff).
#3 The music itself isn't just for the backers, really. If you're more the casual type, then our premium priced offer isn't for you. However, you'll still hear the music on radio shows, in sets, and at raves (as I said, Vibes still plays out every weekend). It's not like you'll never get to hear it. If you're into this stuff, you'll be glad it was made when you hear it even though you've paid nothing towards it. That's definitely a positive that has wider benefits: Vibes will be playing quality new material alongside his classics from the 90s.
#4 What even IS "the scene"? I said to Samination privately that our release has nothing to do with "the scene", because there is no 'scene' for the type of music we're doing. This isn't a UK Hardcore album. This is a classic DJ Vibes '93/'94/'95 style album, predominantly breakbeats, pads, stabs, pianos, huge bass, etc. Samination has said he'd class that as jungle, which is fair. I disagree, but it's a valid point of view.
What we're doing wouldn't have been a contribution to any scene if we were to put it out on general release - and more to the point, that wouldn't have been a viable option in any case. If we were making an album 'for the scene', we'd have to make it fit, to some extent. And we just wouldn't have the freedom/time/budget to go all out in the way that we're doing with this project. This is part of the reason we're providing regular video content as part of the package - you'll be shocked when you see how deep we're going for this. It's not something that would be feasible without a reasonable budget. I don't see a way "the scene" could support that. If someone can show me a way, I'll be on the case immediately...
It's incredibly niche music, let's not pretend to be pop stars. We're not contributing much to the scene by doing this, but we're also certainly not taking anything away from the scene. We're not withholding anything that we'd otherwise give. Musicians don't get into music for the money, that would be stupid. I make quite decent money with my studio business, but as far as being an artist goes, the motivation is always the art itself.
#5 It's up to the backers whether or not the project goes ahead. In this case and in DJ Ham's case there were plenty of people who are up for it. Ultimately, people vote with their wallets. And most of the people we've had write to us have said they're more than happy with the offer. I don't think it's the general populace of 'the scene' that were appealing to. My assumption with the DJ Vibes following is that it's mostly people who are a bit older now, they've settled down, they've bought their house, had their kids. They have no interest whatsoever in the vast majority of modern music, rather they long for something along the lines of what they enjoyed at the big raves back in the day. And they have enough disposable income that the price we're asking is really not that big of a deal. Is it wrong to cater to that crowd? I don't think so. Nobody else is catering to them, and they're happy that we finally are. It's win-win.
I could probably sit here and write for hours but you get the idea. Mostly I think it's positive or insignificant. Perhaps if all the main artists were holding their fresh new music ransom that would be problematic, but that's not the case here. The two projects in question (ours and Ham's) wouldn't have been possible at all without this model. Not as far as I can tell, anyway. I'd love to be proved wrong!
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http://www.hattrixx.co.uk/
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Edited by - Owen P on 2017/06/29 09:36:56 |
GrahamC
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United Kingdom
589 posts
Joined: Dec, 2007
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 10:16:00
quote:
Originally posted by Owen P:
The two projects in question (ours and Ham's) wouldn't have been possible at all without this model. Not as far as I can tell, anyway. I'd love to be proved wrong!
You won't be proved wrong tho as you aren't even trying
Did it ever occur to either of you to have a word with HU? Vibes worked on Happy Hardcore Underground so he has a relationship there. Would it have been feasible to do this project with them therefore opening it up to a bigger audience? If not, if you are able, can you explain why it would not have worked?
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Edited by - GrahamC on 2017/06/29 10:17:20 |
Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,072 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 10:23:59
I have to counter #3 for a bit.
My biggest fear with Ham's was that I could be missing out that I might like. Which was just the case with his album. The 2 tracks I really like might not have warrant a full 100 quid pricetag, but I would say it was worth the 25 quid i cut in with. Sure, I could be hearing the tracks being played out by everyone who bought the album, live or in a set. But I'm not just a listeners, I'm a bedroom DJ too. That would mean if I missed out, I would have no (legal) way of getting the tracks, and THAT IS why I feel like these kind of projects hurts (the future listeners/buyers/deejays of) the music(-scene).
I feel just the same way about not re-pressing/re-releasing digitally, much in the case with Thumpa's albums (which I have to say I have given him to much slack for), but they are sold at a managable price and in most cases, with samples before actual release.
quote:
Originally posted by GrahamC:
quote:
Originally posted by Owen P:
The two projects in question (ours and Ham's) wouldn't have been possible at all without this model. Not as far as I can tell, anyway. I'd love to be proved wrong!
You won't be proved wrong tho as you aren't even trying
Did it ever occur to either of you to have a word with HU? Vibes worked on Happy Hardcore Underground so he has a relationship there. Would it have been feasible to do this project with them therefore opening it up to a bigger audience? If not, if you are able, can you explain why it would not have worked?
I've also wondered about the reasoning behind this. I presume it's about being able to push away any other kinds of work, to work full-time on this project without worrying about income for the months they are working on it.
__________________________________
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2017/06/29 10:28:24 |
GrahamC
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United Kingdom
589 posts
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Posted - 2017/06/29 : 12:03:07
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
I've also wondered about the reasoning behind this. I presume it's about being able to push away any other kinds of work, to work full-time on this project without worrying about income for the months they are working on it.
I could agree with that but Owen has said they are both flush with cash and also that Vibes is out every weekend DJing so I don't think that's the reason...
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Vibes & Hattrix with new Ham-starter project
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