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Simon
Advanced Member
Belgium
5,001 posts
Joined: Dec, 2001
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 Posted - 2006/07/16 : 10:01:19
I've stayed out of this one, because it's a no win situation.
I have to agree with much the same things that Ionosphere said - At the end of the day no matter how bad it gets there will still be a scene, just one that not many of us are used to.
Of course we don't want to lose our best producers and all the experience that they bring, but this mp3 music sharing lark has been going around in circles for the past 4- 5 years now (and will imo continue to do so). Whatever will be, will be.
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,073 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/16 : 10:20:49
Just finding out what Frequency that "watermark" uses, and you'll easily remvoe it throu a amp? =P
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Underloop
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,895 posts
Joined: Mar, 2002
91 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/16 : 10:55:32
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
Just finding out what Frequency that "watermark" uses, and you'll easily remvoe it throu a amp? =P
If its interspersed throughout the frequency range then no. For instance, if it was at 50 random frequencies (very narrowband - almost sine) then you would need a very good parametric EQ to get rid of it.
Of course, it could be filtered out using software - even if the frequencies are random for each track, there would have to be a signal somewhere that said "this is where the frequencies are" which could be read into the software and used to design a filter to filter it out, or alter it in such a way to make it legal. That wouldn't be at all hard to crack.
This is of course assuming that this is how it does work. However, wherever there are intelligent minds capable of creating an uncrackable lock, there are more intelligent minds capable of picking that lock - thats the way the world goes round! Without meaning to sound like a pessimist, there is no such thing as unbreakable encryption - to my mind this is not the way forward.
Look at the trend over the past few years with the whole piracy issue. It started out with the launch of mp3 and people discovering file sharing. Everybody did it. Nobody saw right from wrong, and laws were sketchy to say the least on the whole P2P front. Over time people started to see what it was doing, and the responsible few started to use P2P wisely. Buying what they liked, not buyuing what they didn't. Many pumping the money they would have spent in in other ways, concerts (particularly smaller bands) and other events.
However, even with the reversal of the trend, certain organisations continued to push - and as a result of this those who were trying to be sensible about P2P started to lose alot of respect for these organisations, and thus we find ourselves at the stage we do today. Its like the harder they pushed the more the public pushed back. Examples I can think of:
RIAA sueing over nursery rhymes - the press had a field day!
Metallica kicking off about Napster - I remember Billy Joe from Greenday taking the mick out of Metallica on stage for that
Sony and their attempts at stopping CD copying
Just generally the RIAA are classed as a joke. Even the artists themselves are standing up and saying "hey, these guys aren't respecting our wishes".
Now I know this thread isn't about the RIAA or mainstream music in general, but there are alot of lessons to be learnt to my mind. Piracy isn't going to go away, thats for sure, but if people can realise what it is doing to the industry before more people do start leaving because of it then the better the (music) scene will be. Heavy handedness isn't the secret, except in a minority of cases.
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,073 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/16 : 12:29:44
What I'm going to write now might get abit out of topic, but it's still generally about about MP3...
To be honest. Isn't the reason behind why Digital files don't sell, that most people who listens to Hardcore are narrow minded about what format Hardcore is? Hardcore, like ALL genre's are audio, so should it matter on what format it's released on?
To sum it up from this thread and the USH.net one;
People who buy vinyls and vinyl-only releasing Labels are pissed on people who download?
And;
People who buy digital are pissed on Labels who don't go digital, or have a hefty pricetag on their files?
Like most people have said, there's alot of pro's and con's about legal/illegal filesharing/downloading.
Pro's:
* So far I know, most non-english people I know got into Hardcore throu the likes of Ka-ZaA and Soul-Seek. How many of these today that have started buying Hardcore or stopped downloading, I don't know, except that I personally have almost entirly stopped downloading Hardcore illegally (sometimes I download a track I got on a vinyl that I could play properly), aswell that I have spent ALOT of money for CD and digital files to try to keep it going.
Con's
* Ofcourse, Producers will lose money on it, and as long as both sides (Produvers vs Pirates) doesn't try to find a comprimize (?), both sides will hate each other.
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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motivated
Senior Member
Australia
358 posts
Joined: May, 2005
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Posted - 2006/07/16 : 14:50:02
Con's
* Ofcourse, Producers will lose money on it, and as long as both sides (Producers vs Pirates) doesn't try to find a comprimize (?), both sides will hate each other.
ok...but i think if all you lived on was the downloads...(not that its likely) then id be feeling shite if i was having my shit rpped and stolen...
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LIFE IS HARDCORE
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The Deviant
Senior Member
United Kingdom
329 posts
Joined: May, 2004
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Posted - 2006/07/16 : 15:13:02
I wrote a large post on watermarks but it got lost.
I'll sum it up with, Watermarks are a load of bollocks and are just scare tactics for the people who commit piracy on a large scale. I dont' believe it's possible for a so called watermark to transfer to a cassette tape and be recoverd, tape has alot of limitations regarding frequency and degridation, and even if a watermark is used and the audio stays digital, it will be cracked and removed.
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Ionosphere
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,750 posts
Joined: Dec, 2004
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Posted - 2006/07/16 : 20:15:06
quote:
Originally posted by Underloop:
Could an sudio watermark like this be embedded in vinyl then? How would that hold up to being digitally recorded into mp3? I notice it mentions copying from digital to cassette, but can it go the other way round?
Tbh, I don't know if a watermark can be embedded in vinyl but all of our vinyl releases were taken from DAT, which is a digital medium,
and also by way of answering your second question -
"It is easy for law enforcers to retrieve the watermark information by reconverting the cassette into digital format," a C-DAC scientist pointed out.
so I imagine that the same would apply to vinyl but that's just a logical guess.
....and, while I'm here, I'd like to say that this piracy malarky does bother us
as we're planning to release a load of our past/present and future work via payable download.
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This- http://www.discogs.com/artist/Ionosphere
THIS - http://soundcloud.com/ionosphere
VIDEO - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nYWkHCkaho
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,073 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/16 : 21:24:31
quote:
Originally posted by Ionosphere:
....and, while I'm here, I'd like to say that this piracy malarky does bother us
as we're planning to release a load of our past/present and future work via payable download.
I can say you this, a while ago, when I was part of a ripping group (I wont lie, I did release som vinyl-ripps), I heard that DUPE-checks (the last check before a release comes on the net) do not allow mp3/wma material, but considering that Hardcore is a small scene, ripping groups can easily say its CD sourced.
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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bulby_g
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
7,205 posts
Joined: Apr, 2004
430 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/17 : 10:01:39
quote:
Originally posted by DjSamination:
To be honest. Isn't the reason behind why Digital files don't sell, that most people who listens to Hardcore are narrow minded about what format Hardcore is? Hardcore, like ALL genre's are audio, so should it matter on what format it's released on?
It's not being narrow minded it's just allot of people have record decks or have both record and CD decks and would much rather use vinyl (see recent poll on here). I do think MP3 sales would go up if vinyl went completely but not a great deal, they would never reach the sales levels vinyl has. I'm a total vinyl head and I already buy MP3's of decent tracks I can't get on vinyl... I think most people who would buy MP3's are doing so already.
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Chris Goldfinger
Senior Member
United Kingdom
311 posts
Joined: May, 2006
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Posted - 2006/07/17 : 10:20:24
quote:
Originally posted by bulby_g:
It's not being narrow minded it's just allot of people have record decks or have both record and CD decks and would much rather use vinyl (see recent poll on here). I do think MP3 sales would go up if vinyl went completely but not a great deal, they would never reach the sales levels vinyl has. I'm a total vinyl head and I already buy MP3's of decent tracks I can't get on vinyl... I think most people who would buy MP3's are doing so already.
Agreed!!!
I buy mp3's of select tunes i can't get on vinyl but as soon as i can get the vinyl i buy it, i normally use final scratch so having the vinyl ain't essential but i still prefer to own the the vinyl
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Dj Esi
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
567 posts
Joined: Jul, 2005
26 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/17 : 20:02:04
HARDCORE...WILL...NEVER...DIE!
bout time all those ****ing scavangers of hardcore are delt with buy the cd's i play them once to put on ma mp3 player but haveing the lovely colourful boxes and designs on m shelf makes me feel proud and its much better owning the cd rather than having to go to your pc to listen to it every time
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Website - http://www.dj-esi.co.uk
My Space - http://www.myspace.com/dj_esi
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Edited by - Dj Esi on 2006/07/17 20:05:31 |
Dj Esi
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
567 posts
Joined: Jul, 2005
26 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/17 : 20:11:08
cant tey just get filesharing programs like limewire kazaa and bearshare and shit and go to download something like scott brown and when they go to download it got to veiw host and then get their ip address and then where the computer is based who it is registered to and then go give them a nock on their door with a bill and say through all the music you have downloaded you have to pay for it or else the bayliffs will be hear withing 7 days or sumink think it would scare opther ppl when it started getting in papers and tv that they were clamping down on it and were being delt with servirly :D
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Website - http://www.dj-esi.co.uk
My Space - http://www.myspace.com/dj_esi
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Edited by - Dj Esi on 2006/07/17 20:11:52 |
bemaniraver
Junior Member
United States
142 posts
Joined: Dec, 2003
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Posted - 2006/07/17 : 20:29:56
now does someone like Scott Brown who'll rip off entire tracks pay the original producer while he makes some cash on a blatant rip? Now if he does then this is to be totally disregarded...But i find it funny that a fair amount of hardcore is just a rip of a rip of a rip.
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,073 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2006/07/17 : 23:39:53
Esi, if you want that, why dont you just move to USA, where you have no freedom
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Chris Goldfinger
Senior Member
United Kingdom
311 posts
Joined: May, 2006
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Posted - 2006/07/18 : 12:54:27
Although this watermark is a good idea i personnal can't see it working.
Ever thing that has came out to stop pirates has only worked for a short time then the way to get round it is found,
Take the Xbox 360 for example it was meant to be so secure you wouldn't be able to play burnt games, how long did that last?? Not very long!!!
imo anything that is put in place to stop piracy won't work as there is just as much people prepared to spend alot of time working out how to counter act the measures that have being put in place which is meant to stop it
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