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jenks
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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19 hardcore releases
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 Posted - 2011/12/26 : 22:07:28
The point in dispute wasn't that old skool ravers showed more commitment, it was that old skool ravers would rave in a muddy field for their music while 'electrocore' ravers supposedly wouldn't. I don't see how anyone can make an assertion eother way until the new generation are put to the test like the old one was.
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Luna-C
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 22:42:14
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
The point in dispute wasn't that old skool ravers showed more commitment, it was that old skool ravers would rave in a muddy field for their music while 'electrocore' ravers supposedly wouldn't. I don't see how anyone can make an assertion eother way until the new generation are put to the test like the old one was.
These are different times. I think this hypothetical question can never be answered, but its kind of true to say the modern raver - electrocore or otherwise - is less inclined to rave in a muddy field. Not because the old skool were better, but because things have changed. I used to go raving in all sorts of dodgy places because there was no other choice. But now there is a choice, so it stops being about music and starts being about preference. Some people like doing the dance in the mud thing - witness every festival ever. Others, like me, would rather stay at home than go to a rave in a field. But thats only because nowadays I have a choice, and that makes all the difference.
The new generation will never be "put to the test" as you put it. But I suspect if a music came along that was banned everywhere, and only played at illegal events in muddy fields in the middle of nowhere, people would go to those fields. The actual type of music is irrelevant to the question IMO. Availability / exclusivity is the defining thing. Thats the way people are.
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NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 23:05:16
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
The reason it's called 'support' is because they need it to stay afloat. The bigger labels by comparison, are much more comfortable, because many more people like the stuff they produce. Plus, it feels much cooler for the elitists to support a more obscure label than a more mainstream one.
That's a baseless assumption from yourself yourself, though if the hat fits and you'd like to call yourself an elitist then feel free, but personally I'm in it for the music and couldn't give a toss if it's mainstream or not. Mainstream at the moment happens to be bad. Had I been old enough back then I would have been a massive fan of mainstream 90s music.
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Not a chance, the illegal raves with the best turnouts never play upfront hardcore. There are never any upfront illegals because nobody is motivated about the music enough to venture that far.
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Prove it. A much more likely explanation, is that there is simply zero incentive to rave in a muddy field when there are regular raves featuring the top upfront hardcore DJ's in much better venues. The scene grew in warehouses and fields out of necessity, ravers of old would have ****ing loved to be able to party in the places we can these days.
Prove what? I've been going to illegals since I was 13 and I've only ever come across 2 upfront hardcore illegals. Old skool hardcore, Jungle and Acid house still flourishes in the illegal party scene. As does Techno, drum n bass and Psytrance.
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If I want to go to an upfront UK Hardcore rave I take a walk from my house to the station, get on a comfy train, sit back and relax as I'm transported to london, get off the train and walk into a club for under a tenner with nice lighting and facilities that are warm and toilets that are nice and yet I STILL find myself going 'nah, it's not worth it for the music'
quote:
So?
So if I'm willing to travel out to a muddy field with next to no facilities for a rave with music I like compared to a comfy club I think that speaks volumes personally. Modern Hardcore is suffering with all the creature comforts and convinience of clubs, that is a fact.
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I'm not saying old skool is better than new skool or anything like that, but in the past people would overcome all the obstacles just to get to a rave in a deserted space in the middle of nowhere, all without internet because they loved the music and nothing more. It's as simple as that. Electro hardcore wouldn't last 5 minutes out of the clubs, it'd die before you know it.
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Baseless assertion. You seem to have it in your head that old skool ravers are somehow more committed, and love the music more, but you can provide no evidence to back that suggestion up. You're just romanticising the old skool, the way so many elitists do.
As Luna-C said, they were 100% committed back then, just a look at twitter and you'll see producers urging ravers and complaining themselves that not enough go to raves. In fact, it was the very first thing Breeze said in reply to Ush.net being closed down. You seem to be basing all your retorts on the assumption I'm an elitist so obviously facts aren't going to get through to you anyway. I enjoy the most childish, cheesiest of all happy hardcore, I even enjoy some of the Nightcore videos on youtube, and this is after being into drum n bass for years and years.
If you still want to call me an elitist then go right ahead, but at the end of the day I just call it how I see it. 90s hardcore was played at illegal raves as very few promoters felt they could make money from it/didn't want the drug connotations of rave music played in their club, it thrived despite an economic downturn and zero support from clubs. We're in the exact same situation now and it hasn't driven the music to illegal parties/venues and if you ask any promoters of illegals they will say that the interest isn't there and isn't worth them risking their equipment and getting on the wrong side of the law. If the music was interesting enough and good enough it would overcome the odds and leak out somewhere, but instead it has everything handed to it on a plate and still struggles - that to me is a big enough indication that the music simply is not good enough. I will never understand the appeal of hardtek and frenchcore and personally do not like it one bit but apparently there is enough interest to warrant large outdoor illegals going on for entire weekends dedicated to it. And these are constantly touring up and down the country - and beyond.
I know it's easy to make the assumption that anyone standing up for the old skool hardcore while deriding the new hardcore has to be an elitist but unfortunately not everybody can be stereotyped and put into boxes based upon their beliefs, in fact - that's a form of elitism too. So try not to accuse others of doing something you yourself are guilty of please.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/26 23:11:07 |
jenks
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 00:28:57
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Prove what? I've been going to illegals since I was 13 and I've only ever come across 2 upfront hardcore illegals.
So? Why would anyone who is into upfront hardcore bother with illegals when there are so many events to chose from? The fact that there are not many upfront illegals knocking about doesn't prove anything, that's without getting into the fact that this is only a confidence statement to begin with.
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So if I'm willing to travel out to a muddy field with next to no facilities for a rave with music I like compared to a comfy club I think that speaks volumes personally.
Does it? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to glean from that. The fact that you will rave in a field has no bearing on what electrocore fans are willing to do. They don't rave in fields, because they have no reason to. There are upfront hardcore nights with top name DJ's on a weekly basis.
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Modern Hardcore is suffering with all the creature comforts and convinience of clubs, that is a fact.
That's 'a fact' is it? Are you for real? xD
How is it suffering?
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As Luna-C said, they were 100% committed back then, just a look at twitter and you'll see producers urging ravers and complaining themselves that not enough go to raves. In fact, it was the very first thing Breeze said in reply to Ush.net being closed down.
You're completely contradicting your earlier argument. What do numbers have to do with commitment and dedication? Also, I think you'll find that Luna-C also said that ravers 'definitely would' trek into muddy fields for electrocore were it not more mainstream and easily available.
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90s hardcore was played at illegal raves as very few promoters felt they could make money from it/didn't want the drug connotations of rave music played in their club, it thrived despite an economic downturn and zero support from clubs. We're in the exact same situation now and it hasn't driven the music to illegal parties/venues and if you ask any promoters of illegals they will say that the interest isn't there and isn't worth them risking their equipment and getting on the wrong side of the law.
Uh... what? No we're not. Mainstream hardcore promoters are doing fine, and they couldn't give a **** about the drug connotations.
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If the music was interesting enough and good enough it would overcome the odds and leak out somewhere, but instead it has everything handed to it on a plate and still struggles - that to me is a big enough indication that the music simply is not good enough. I will never understand the appeal of hardtek and frenchcore and personally do not like it one bit but apparently there is enough interest to warrant large outdoor illegals going on for entire weekends dedicated to it. And these are constantly touring up and down the country - and beyond.
You seem to have it in your head that no illegals = no dedication, which is nonsense, frankly. Hardcore is doing OK, the electro style most of all, I've no idea where you're getting this idea that it's struggling from.
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Edited by - jenks on 2011/12/27 00:45:36 |
NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 00:55:02
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Prove what? I've been going to illegals since I was 13 and I've only ever come across 2 upfront hardcore illegals.
So? Why would anyone who is into upfront hardcore bother with illegals when there are so many events to chose from? The fact that there are not many upfront illegals knocking about doesn't prove anything, that's without getting into the fact that this is only a confidence statement to begin with.
quote:
So if I'm willing to travel out to a muddy field with next to no facilities for a rave with music I like compared to a comfy club I think that speaks volumes personally.
Does it? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to glean from that. The fact that you will rave in a field has no bearing on what electrocore fans are willing to do. They don't rave in fields, because they have no reason to. There are upfront hardcore nights with top name DJ's on a weekly basis.
quote:
Modern Hardcore is suffering with all the creature comforts and convinience of clubs, that is a fact.
That's 'a fact' is it? Are you for real? xD
How is it suffering?
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As Luna-C said, they were 100% committed back then, just a look at twitter and you'll see producers urging ravers and complaining themselves that not enough go to raves. In fact, it was the very first thing Breeze said in reply to Ush.net being closed down.
You're completely contradicting your earlier argument. What do numbers have to do with commitment and dedication? Also, I think you'll find that Luna-C also said that ravers 'definitely would' trek into muddy fields for electrocore were it not more mainstream and easily available.
quote:
90s hardcore was played at illegal raves as very few promoters felt they could make money from it/didn't want the drug connotations of rave music played in their club, it thrived despite an economic downturn and zero support from clubs. We're in the exact same situation now and it hasn't driven the music to illegal parties/venues and if you ask any promoters of illegals they will say that the interest isn't there and isn't worth them risking their equipment and getting on the wrong side of the law.
Uh... what? No we're not. Mainstream hardcore promoters are doing fine, and they couldn't give a **** about the drug connotations.
quote:
If the music was interesting enough and good enough it would overcome the odds and leak out somewhere, but instead it has everything handed to it on a plate and still struggles - that to me is a big enough indication that the music simply is not good enough. I will never understand the appeal of hardtek and frenchcore and personally do not like it one bit but apparently there is enough interest to warrant large outdoor illegals going on for entire weekends dedicated to it. And these are constantly touring up and down the country - and beyond.
You seem to have it in your head that no illegals = no dedication, which is nonsense, frankly. Hardcore is doing OK, the electro style most of all, I've no idea where you're getting this idea that it's struggling from.
I get it from the multiple producers, promoters and DJs I've discussed this with; MC Wotsee, DJ Breeze, Scott Brown to name a few. I don't expect you to know the names of promoters exactly. Hardcore is definitely suffering, mainstream hardcore promoters are not doing fine and if you're up to date on facebook drama you'll know there's a real war between promoters and DJs - DJs charging "too much" and promoters unable to pay for them. Old skool hardcore did not make it into mainstream 90s clubs because of the drug connotations, much like nowadays all hard dance has been removed from Global Gathering because of the rampant drug use by drum n bass, hardcore and hard dance users in the previous years, when half your attendees are arrested for possession of drugs or are ODing/acting disorderly under the influence, it makes your venue/event look very bad and can give it a bad name. Bad name = less attendees = less money. I'm all for drug use, but that's the sad fact in our current money-based system.
Electrocore nights are not happening on a weekly basis - this is something you seem to be overlooking, ever since I was able to legally rave in clubs to hardcore I was doing so virtually every weekend and I noticed a definite decline in 2010 and the latter part of 2009 of events and a greater decline in the turnout. I'm not 100% putting that down to electrocore (I would personally blame the economy) but when a good, popular genre fails to survive/exist in the clubs, it thrives in the illegal circuit. This is not the case for modern hardcore (electrocore or otherwise) and the only logical benefactor I can think of based upon the previous course of hardcore history and experience in attending illegal raves for years and years is that the music is simply not up to scratch.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/27 00:57:23 |
jenks
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 01:00:54
Electrocore hasn't failed to survive in the clubs though, that's the thing. The scene might not be what it was a couple of years ago, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near in the dire straits it would need to be for people to start ditching clubs and setting up in fields. There are still plenty of hardcore nights around.
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NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 01:25:44
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
Electrocore hasn't failed to survive in the clubs though, that's the thing. The scene might not be what it was a couple of years ago, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near in the dire straits it would need to be for people to start ditching clubs and setting up in fields. There are still plenty of hardcore nights around.
It's completely failing to survive, you have to make some comparison. Don't forget, hardcore moved to clubs in the late 90s, when things were still technically 'old skool' music wise. Yet it was still being played at illegals too. Every year DJs and ravers alike wonder if the biggest event in hardcore will go ahead (HTID in the Sun) and every year many of us are astounded when it does. That is not a thriving scene by any means, just go out and rave and talk to some promoters. The reason for the decline is debateable, but the fact it's declining is exactly that..it's fact. I often laugh at how the big producers alternate between "this scene is thriving!" to the ravers, and "this scene is dying.." to the DJs, producers and promoters.
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jenks
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 14:59:47
The events calendar looks pretty full. Whether it's 'thriving' or not, the need to resort to fields and warehouses just isn't there.
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NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 15:36:52
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
The events calendar looks pretty full. Whether it's 'thriving' or not, the need to resort to fields and warehouses just isn't there.
A few events spread across a month is not 'pretty full' as I said, you need to make some comparison and in comparison it is doing poorly. The need to resort to fields and warehouses isn't there because the music isn't good enough, when this dub/electrocore fad moves on (which it will, just like the hardcore that used watered down drum n bass fad did in 04) you'll see that it won't go to the fields and warehouses because nobody will care enough to keep it alive.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/27 15:37:46 |
warped_candykid
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United States
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 17:10:38
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
The point in dispute wasn't that old skool ravers showed more commitment, it was that old skool ravers would rave in a muddy field for their music while 'electrocore' ravers supposedly wouldn't. I don't see how anyone can make an assertion eother way until the new generation are put to the test like the old one was.
I'll take a dirty, musty old warehouse over a spotless club anyday.
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NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 17:40:48
quote:
Originally posted by warped_candykid:
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
The point in dispute wasn't that old skool ravers showed more commitment, it was that old skool ravers would rave in a muddy field for their music while 'electrocore' ravers supposedly wouldn't. I don't see how anyone can make an assertion eother way until the new generation are put to the test like the old one was.
I'll take a dirty, musty old warehouse over a spotless club anyday.
I think most kandy kids would :P I like the facilities a club has to offer but I'd rather rave in a shabby old venue. I think the problem with this argument is that there's no *illicit* way you can prove that electrocore fans are or aren't ravers but people who have been raving in both clubs, warehouses and fields for years know the score. It always has been a totally different vibe.
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NekoShuffle
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 19:26:51
I'm done in this debate now, clearly we'll be sticking to our viewpoints and not budging so we're not going to get any extra insight or education from this. Back on subject, I don't think I'll be getting CLXH8 unless the third CD is more my kinda thing, but I think now that HU has started to widen its scope to cater to the more uplifting sounds, that seems much more my kind of thing.
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Samination
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Sweden
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 20:56:38
oi you too, im not done fapping yet. continue with the cat fight ffs before you kill my boner...
but I have to agree tho with jenks tho. Either artists are actually earning money on the electrocore stuff, or, like neko is saying, electrocore is dying dead (by hardcore fans) but the artists are putting their hope it will hit soon because of Skrillex and alike.
But then, I don't do clubs (but dubstep is starting to get big in sweden tho), but it's obvious you 2 go to completely different clubs if you both feel so strong about your opinions.
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Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2011/12/27 21:06:26 |
Triquatra
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Posted - 2011/12/27 : 21:26:54
I do have a wee chuckle to myself when I see people who have clearly only recently got into hardcore talking about it starting to "evolve" and that all us "oldies" in the scene need to move with it..and get down with the electro thing...
The bit that baffles me why they seem to think that its "only just" starting to take an "electro" turn, when this stuff had already strarted to creep into the scene yonks ago..
I mean, I never liked 'Dougal and Gammer - 3000 Cycles' and that was back in 2004.
interesting that it wasnt too long after that, that the "UK" hardcore started to get a bit stale 2005/06?
imo it looks like there is a 4 or 5 year period within the scene after which the "popular" styles get a little worn.
94-99 happy hardcore
99-05 (or 00/06) uk hardcore
06-11 electrocore/"partycore" as some were calling it, where everyone seemed to be placing a donk atop things.
that isn't a scientific study, just an observation ;)
the discaimer here is that dougal and gammer were still writing some superb pieces of music at the time and since then, it just happens that that's the more electro'y one out of all the tracks i could think of!
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Edited by - Triquatra on 2011/12/27 21:31:16 |
Torpex
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Poland
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Posted - 2011/12/28 : 12:41:37
It's not really electro-y though, more acid-ish. :) It was also one of the 1st successful (as in: I like the track) attempts at a minimal drop in UK hardcore that I can think of.
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