NekoShuffle Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts Joined: Nov, 2009
Posted - 2011/12/11 : 21:34:56
quote:Originally posted by cruelcore1:
quote:Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Nobody called you a defenseive little girl, Jay was talking about DJ Breeze acting like a Defensive Little Girl online, as far as I'm aware nobody on this site has anything against you. I think you need to re-read things a bit slowly and try to take the time to understand what people are saying, maybe it's the language barrier or something but you're raising points in your posts which I already answered. You're also wrong about old skool hardcore, old skool hardcore was never 'random'. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from... Please re-read and come back.
I knew somebody would refer to that. Thats true, nobody called me tht way. Its just tht I consider myself a "defensive little girl" (I implied to it the 1st time I mentioned it) which is not a good habit.
I read a thing about lack of randomness on this site once. I was refering to it in my last comment
I've just re-read your posts. I understood that you completely tolerate and support minimal, dubstepy and electroey HC. However, you say it's bad music. Also, that dubstep and electro are bad music too.
Did I misunderstand or miss something?
Haven't you heard of sort of music that evolved of classical tradition where there were no music keys or proper harmony? They were just piano keys, ALL piano keys, played in a way to express a dark feeling. It was considered a pure peace of art. Also, see Jazz. Normal Jazz styles don't have music keys.
So why are they different from Dubstep? Just because they use music notes? That's also randomness. And who says Dubstep can't be melodic? It just that too low amount of people tried making melodic dubstep. If I werent so lazy, I'd make some already.
If the thing "future of Hardcore should be Hardcore" was used in practice, then we'd never move from those old breakdeat stuff. They'd be no Gabber neither. Because that was the 1st HC out there.
EDIT: Modern music scene shows what future is. Its hard minimal. But hot chicks are most important after all. Eventhough melodic styles might drastically grow, it'll take much time to take over the rave scene.
You're missing the point, I'm not saying hardcore shouldn't evolve, I'm saying it shouldn't lose the factors that make it hardcore, which this dubstep-core is making it do. Don't reply to this post; I'm going to write a post outlining what I think of dubstep/electro-core because far too many people aren't reading my posts properly and are jumping to conclusions. Hold tight.
NekoShuffle Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts Joined: Nov, 2009
Posted - 2011/12/11 : 22:22:50
My Opinion on the New Dubstep/Electro influenced Hardcore
Right, because nobody seems to be reading my posts properly, jumping to conclusions and throwing personal attacks at me, let me make it super super clear where I stand on this issue.
Facts:
Dubstep and Electro are currently extremely popular genres of electronic music
As a result, many other genres including hardcore are experimenting with incorporating electro and dubstep influences into their respective genre
People have a right to enjoy this Electro/dubstep influenced music and artists have a right to make it
My opinions pertaining to Electro/Dubstep influenced hardcore:
It's healthy and refreshing to experiment with other genres, especially in Hardcore
Reasoning:
Electronic music is an ever-changing, constantly-evolving beast. Because of the nature of the music and its reliance upon technology, we progress arguably faster than other types of music such as Rock or Pop. Because of this, a genre which doesn't develop Technologically AND Conceptually will die a dinosaur and that genre will go stagnant, therefore experimenting with new sounds and new ideas should always be welcomed in every genre.
The Dubstep fad will soon be gone
Reasoning:
Why does dubstep appeal to the masses right now? Because of the filthy, dirty drops. These drops are a novelty, they're a new sound nobody has heard, when I first heard dubstep years ago, even I was a bit blown away. Take the biggest name in Dubstep right now: Skrillex. Regardless of what you think of him, people like his dubstep more because it is heavier, dirtier and filthier than the rest.
Now think about that for a second.
Dubstep as a genre may well be intelligent, creative and artistic, but what the masses see in it is the heaviness of the drops. Imagine dubstep has no drops for a second; do you think it would be as popular? Of course not. The filthy drops MAKE dubstep what it is, but unfortunately this doesn't make it very flexible; eventually people will get bored of hearing heavy drops and will instead pursue a different sound. This happens to every genre eventually, but remember that every other genre has much more in the way of melodies and other more interesting musical intricacies to keep said genre fresh sounding, therefore it's simple common sense that Dubstep will not last as long as these other genres.
It is a bad idea to assume or indicate that Dubstep or Electro influenced hardcore is the 'future'.
Reasoning:
Take a look at Dubstep/Electro influenced hardcore, there's nothing wrong with inspiration from other genres; but listen to the tracks. We are taking the standard UK Hardcore kick and bass, replacing melodies with techy electro noises and replacing traditional breakdowns with Dubstep drops or Electro Builds, in other words: we're borrowing too much. Why is this a problem? Well, when the Dubstep/Electro trend dies, where does that leave Hardcore? We'll be pushing a dead sound (that people dropped because they were bored with it) sped-up to a rave pace. Does that sound like a bright future for our genre? Is that the future of the music we love? Taking whatever was popular and speeding it up to 180bpm? Really?
There's a phrase I particularly like: "Conceptualisation is the crux of design."
This means that technology alone will not make our genre evolve, and copying what other people are doing in more successful genres definitely will not make our genre evolve, we need more than fresh technology and fresh sounds - we need fresh IDEAS. The future of hardcore doesn't depend on someone fiddling the right knobs and pitching it up to 180bpm, the future of hardcore relies on talented muscians writing good music that everyone in the scene can enjoy. Something that has fresh, modern sounds, but is still unmistakably the same Hardcore we've loved from 93 to 97 to 2006 to 2011, I can't give enough praise & respect to the guys at HU Breaks, because that's exactly what they're doing - taking what was great about the old Hardcore spirit and putting a whole fresh new twist on it for new and old ravers alike - Utilizing new technologies yet keeping the core values of Hardcore.
Conclusion:
I have no problems with people liking electro hardcore, I have no problems with people making it, nor do I have any problems with people playing it. My opinions and dissatisfaction are a warning; if we borrow too heavily, we will have nothing of our own; if we don't borrow enough - we will become stagnant and eventually forgotten. It's fun to experiment with sounds; heck I'd love to hear experiments with Jazz & Hardcore or Swing & Hardcore, but I don't think it is a good idea to put our future in the hands of these experiments, no matter how much mainstream attention is paid to them.
Those are my views on this issue, if perhaps you have some personal problem with me then here's a post from DMS which covers the exact same point I am trying to make:
quote:Originally posted by djDMS:
We all have differing ideas on what's good and what isn't, what works and what doesn't etc so these sort of debates are always going to happen. Each to their own and all that. BUT my issue is getting unoriginal, regurgitated shite thrown at me from every direction. I want Hardcore to be original like it used to be, not copying what's popular at the time and whacking an extra 40 BPM on top to make it sound like Hardcore!
I like Dubstep (and did even before it was popular), I also like a lot of Electro - so it's not a case of me being against the genres as such. But i've said before, Hardcore was once it's own genre, had it's own style and identity. Where's that now?
If all these producers who are following the crowd are as genuinely passionate about this 'new' sound as they say they are, why weren't they doing it BEFORE it got popular? I have no problem with people trying something different, but when that different becomes the norm, surely it's time to start looking for the next innovation?
cruelcore1 Advanced Member
Croatia (Hrvatska)
1,485 posts Joined: May, 2010
Posted - 2011/12/11 : 22:48:37
First of all, nobody is attacking you. These are discussion forums. If we all agreed on the same statements, it wouldnt be as fun.
You indeed form great statements and have an amazing mind. But its just that I disagree on some points, as well as you would disagree on some of my points in another discussion. I've had tougher disagreements on this forum though.
Take melodic Hardcore and throw out melodic synths. What do u get? Kick and bass. Blah. No different than dubstep. Myself, I'm lowly capable of getting an electro inspiration. It's difficult though.
Our sound will never die, even if itll be fully influenced by electro and dubstep. Don't be afraid borrowing will kill us - commercial guize will combine it with other genres, and then the passionate artistic minds will appear producing in that style. And who says "something new" or "traditional hardcore" will never be popular. There will be times of hardcore, and times when itll be forgotten.
I also agree with the ideas and technology part.
You guys should know its very hard to be original nowadays. If i tried to make something original, in the end itd turn out to be out already. But tht won't happen soon cuz Im lazy. In times when I finally have time to produce, instead of that i start being a grasshoppa.
P.S. Popular dubstep is not original dubstep. Original dubstep is based on woob sounds. These nowadays r more like electro. Though, u might have known tht already.
EDIT: I fully read your post. Just wanted to mention that.
Alert moderatorEdited by - cruelcore1 on 2011/12/11 22:58:29
NekoShuffle Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts Joined: Nov, 2009
Posted - 2011/12/11 : 23:21:03
quote:Originally posted by cruelcore1:
First of all, nobody is attacking you. These are discussion forums. If we all agreed on the same statements, it wouldnt be as fun.
Take melodic Hardcore and throw out melodic synths. What do u get? Kick and bass. Blah. No different than dubstep. Myself, I'm lowly capable of getting an electro inspiration. It's difficult though.
Our sound will never die, even if itll be fully influenced by electro and dubstep. Don't be afraid borrowing will kill us - commercial guize will combine it with other genres
1) I got called a liar much earlier for stating fact and some unkind accusations were thrown at me, that's enough of an attack as far as I'm concerned.
2) You can't compare the entire concept of melodies with what is basically overprocessed effects. It's entirely different from dubstep.
3) It will absolutely die if fully influenced by those two genres, thankfully there are enough people doing different things to make sure that hardcore doesn't die. The 'Hardcore Will Never Die' sentiment is nice but it's a genre like any other and without support - it will crumble, or more accurately - people will make something completely different and call it hardcore instead.
cruelcore1 Advanced Member
Croatia (Hrvatska)
1,485 posts Joined: May, 2010
Posted - 2011/12/11 : 23:32:54
1) Srry I forgot that. But its not tht Im attacking you though.
2) Inspiration is inspiration, regardless of whether ita a melody or a distorted wave with FX.
3) You said they'd make something completely different and call it Hardcore. But hasn't that happened already? I mean, we kept the hardness and speed, but it's very different from oldskool.
EDIT: It's not like we can see the future though. We can only predict it. And HC will hav tragic moments no matter what.
NekoShuffle Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts Joined: Nov, 2009
Posted - 2011/12/11 : 23:54:04
quote:Originally posted by cruelcore1:
1) Srry I forgot that. But its not tht Im attacking you though.
2) Inspiration is inspiration, regardless of whether ita a melody or a distorted wave with FX.
3) You said they'd make something completely different and call it Hardcore. But hasn't that happened already? I mean, we kept the hardness and speed, but it's very different from oldskool.
I know you're not attacking me mate, don't worry about it, that was someone else.
Yeah, inspiration is inspiration but look at how hardcore has progressed; in the old skool we used stabs, vocals and...well the pianos were stabs too mainly but they were still there. In upfront UK Hardcore we have more riff-led music with a trancy edge. You can arrange stabs and notes into a variety of different combinations and arrange them in infinite ways - this is how music is made. Dubstep is all about the effects; there's only so many places you can put them before it all sounds too similar to tell apart. Not to mention that the human brain remembers melodies and tunes and vocals far better than it remembers a collection of random noises layered over each other in no particular order, no matter how appealing those noises may be to you - that's just how your brain works - it's science.
Old skool hardcore is this, this is how ORIGINAL Hardcore music sounded way back in 1992
Then we had Happy Hardcore in 1995 which took influence from gabber, sped up the tempo to about 160bpm ish and added a 4/4 beat.
Since then Hardcore went trancier in the early 2000s, upped the tempo even further to 170bpm and we had UK Hardcore or Upfront Hardcore as we call it in the UK.
So in a sense you are right, Hardcore stopped being Hardcore in 1996 really, but many of the same artists stayed behind the sound and the spirit of playing fast paced happy rave music was kept alive. The dubstep hardcore sounds nothing like that besides the bpm and it hasn't kept the rave alive at all. We're listening to sped up club tunes, with club sounds...in clubs. You could probably argue and make a valid point that Hardcore died years ago, but thankfully there have always been a handful of producers making the genre sound more like rave music.
In the end it doesn't matter to me if Hardcore dies or not, I'll still listen to the tunes I like and I'll still produce the sound I want to produce, I don't care what genre label gets stuck on it. I like Upfront (or as you call it, 'Melodic' hardcore) but I only really like it because it's the closest thing to mid-90s Happy Hardcore and some of it happens to be good and carry the same Happy vibe. I make and DJ Happy Hardcore music, if the old 140bpm breakbeat hardcore came back and told me to piss off and give my music a different name I wouldn't object at all. At the end of the day, anyone with any musical foresight can tell you that purely dubsteppy/electro hardcore has no future and that's exactly what I warn people about, if Hardcore crumbles and disappears as a result I honestly couldn't give a toss. I'd be sad for the ravers and producers, but it wouldn't really affect me.
Alert moderatorEdited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/11 23:56:19
DJ-Hutchy Senior Member
United Kingdom
355 posts Joined: Sep, 2008
Posted - 2011/12/12 : 11:54:23
Very argumentative post here people.......
A long but interesting read, a very, very long read actually.
But Xtreme 8
CD1 will be Styles take on the new sound all stuff like you & I, mercy & see the stars etc...
CD2 will be Breeze's take with the Modulate and Petruccio sound with his twist and tracks....
CD3 will be Hixxy & Re-con keeping it all clublandy with the HARDCORE TIL I DIE mix..
Thats my thoughts and expectations on this album, and im still looking forwqrd to this.
PLEASE DON'T ATTACK ME FOR MY OWN PERSONAL THOUGHTS, IM ONLY HUMAN...:P
jenks Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,698 posts Joined: Feb, 2003
19 hardcore releases
Posted - 2011/12/12 : 13:02:07
quote:Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Think about what makes hardcore passable as music; is it a 4/4 beat at 180bpm?
Pretty much.
quote:Arbitrary noises + 180bpm 4/4 beat does not make good music, if you enjoy it - excellent; I don't have a problem with people enjoying the music, I have a problem with the attitude a select few carry that this music is somehow a step forward when it really isn't.
I'm of the opinion that good and bad music doesn't exist. And as for a step forward in this context, I don't even know what that means.
quote:He's never told us 'This is how it is now, get used to it' he's never tried to tell us that it's the 'future' of the genre,
NekoShuffle Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts Joined: Nov, 2009
Posted - 2011/12/12 : 14:28:08
quote:Originally posted by jenks:
Who does?
Breeze multiple times, not to mention the people who try and defend it by saying it's the future. And No, harcore is not just a 4/4 beat at 180bpm, there are other genres at that speed too, including a splinter genre of psytrance. To say that is like saying Trance is the same as Hardcore Breaks which is the same as 140 jungle because they're all the same BPM. A beat regardless of the genre does not make anything passable as music; it's just a beat.
Music is subjective, but some music is musically better than others, you can't honestly debate that, it's simply fact. What stops Hardcore getting mainstream attention is because simply, a lot of it isn't as good as other genres from a musical standpoint. Call it shallow all you want - I'd be inclined to agree, but that's just how listeners are.
Alert moderatorEdited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/12 15:12:13
cruelcore1 Advanced Member
Croatia (Hrvatska)
1,485 posts Joined: May, 2010
Posted - 2011/12/12 : 16:44:04
quote:Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Honestly, to me it doesn't sound any better than dubstep. Actually, sounds pretty empty and random.
A note is a wave of a certain frequency. A melody is a combination of those notes.
I'll always think ure underestimating a-bunch-of-effects and you'll always think that u don't. This discussion isn't taking us anywhere lol. It's just that I hear much more in good effects-songs.
NekoShuffle Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts Joined: Nov, 2009
Posted - 2011/12/12 : 16:59:19
quote:Originally posted by cruelcore1:
quote:Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Honestly, to me it doesn't sound any better than dubstep. Actually, sounds pretty empty and random.
!!!
Don't say it too loudly! Smoogie will assassinate you for a comment like that...and many others.
You're right, this discussion isn't getting us anywhere. You'll see in the future, this sound won't take us anywhere, just like the drum n bass influences in 2005 didn't take us anywhere when DnB got mainstream attention. As I said, I say this as a warning, not because I think people should be ashamed to listen to it or because I care about being 'right'; in the end it's not of great consequence to me, electronic music as a whole could cease to exist and I would pick up my guitar and make music with that instead.
Printer friendly
Posted - 2011/12/11 : 21:34:56
