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Thread |
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Dys7
Advanced Member
United States
1,231 posts
Joined: Nov, 2011
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 Posted - 2011/12/25 : 22:21:26
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by SparkzMusic:
Thats the thing, theres nobody producing "happy hardcore" at current. In reality for that specific style it cant really be made with new vst's and software,
There definitely is, trust me on that.
Yeah, I've wondered that. What was the major program they used to make hardcore in those days? I know now everyone uses Cubase
__________________________________
The above comment was likely written when I was *literally* 13, so please don't judge me too hard.
---
The Spirit at the Edge of Infinity
Check out my cheesy fiddlings here:
http://soundcloud.com/dys7dj/
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Triquatra
Moderator
United Kingdom
12,636 posts
Joined: Nov, 2003
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Posted - 2011/12/25 : 22:32:59
this is true, there certainly are people who are pushing the old skool happy sound, other than a few of the larger producers who are starting to dabble again Mortis and Yoshi J are two that spring to mind
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http://www.hardcoreunderground.co.uk/ - http://CLSM.net -
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/25 : 22:39:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dys7:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by SparkzMusic:
Thats the thing, theres nobody producing "happy hardcore" at current. In reality for that specific style it cant really be made with new vst's and software,
There definitely is, trust me on that.
Yeah, I've wondered that. What was the major program they used to make hardcore in those days? I know now everyone uses Cubase
Not everyone uses cubase, and as far as software goes there's not a great deal of difference anyway. Most people used atari STs I believe, but you'd probably have to be more specific on the era. It'd be silly to use one now even if you wanted authenticity because it was mostly samples and stabs which you can still do today...once again, dependant on the era. The memory limitations on that old stuff would just be far too annoying to deal with for modern production.
EDIT: and yeah, Yoshi J isn't even an up and coming producer really, he makes music purely for fun and hasn't been able to make anything due to hardware limitations for a while. His stuff sounds very 97 and really really good which is annoying because I think it comes second to him as he also does lots of drawing (some people get all the talent!). Me and Lotte are working on 95 sounding Dutch stuff, Jason P does very Makina sounding 96 bits. Intentionally or not Spirit Wolf has done a few too. Also another Dutchie called Pookie does old-skool happy hardcore sounding stuff. And none of this is 'old-skool-track-with-upfront-kick-and-bass' kinda stuff...it's all original happy hardcore and so far I've been the only glue getting it all in one place and hooking people up and getting them connected.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/25 22:48:27 |
Dys7
Advanced Member
United States
1,231 posts
Joined: Nov, 2011
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Posted - 2011/12/25 : 23:30:36
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by Dys7:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by SparkzMusic:
Thats the thing, theres nobody producing "happy hardcore" at current. In reality for that specific style it cant really be made with new vst's and software,
There definitely is, trust me on that.
Yeah, I've wondered that. What was the major program they used to make hardcore in those days? I know now everyone uses Cubase
Not everyone uses cubase, and as far as software goes there's not a great deal of difference anyway. Most people used atari STs I believe, but you'd probably have to be more specific on the era. It'd be silly to use one now even if you wanted authenticity because it was mostly samples and stabs which you can still do today...once again, dependant on the era. The memory limitations on that old stuff would just be far too annoying to deal with for modern production.
EDIT: and yeah, Yoshi J isn't even an up and coming producer really, he makes music purely for fun and hasn't been able to make anything due to hardware limitations for a while. His stuff sounds very 97 and really really good which is annoying because I think it comes second to him as he also does lots of drawing (some people get all the talent!). Me and Lotte are working on 95 sounding Dutch stuff, Jason P does very Makina sounding 96 bits. Intentionally or not Spirit Wolf has done a few too. Also another Dutchie called Pookie does old-skool happy hardcore sounding stuff. And none of this is 'old-skool-track-with-upfront-kick-and-bass' kinda stuff...it's all original happy hardcore and so far I've been the only glue getting it all in one place and hooking people up and getting them connected.
Actually, I think that's one of the biggest reasons happy hardcore of that era sounded so
creative and passionate- when people have huge limitations like that, they really have to pour everything they have into it in order to get a sound they love- every sound you heard was carefully thought over and deliberated on. These days, you can whip up a song in a couple minutes, all the programs and presets make it incredibly easy.
Since there is so much open space, people don't really think about what sounds BEST, they clicky-click whatever jumps out at them right away.
__________________________________
The above comment was likely written when I was *literally* 13, so please don't judge me too hard.
---
The Spirit at the Edge of Infinity
Check out my cheesy fiddlings here:
http://soundcloud.com/dys7dj/
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/25 : 23:45:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dys7:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by Dys7:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by SparkzMusic:
Thats the thing, theres nobody producing "happy hardcore" at current. In reality for that specific style it cant really be made with new vst's and software,
There definitely is, trust me on that.
Yeah, I've wondered that. What was the major program they used to make hardcore in those days? I know now everyone uses Cubase
Not everyone uses cubase, and as far as software goes there's not a great deal of difference anyway. Most people used atari STs I believe, but you'd probably have to be more specific on the era. It'd be silly to use one now even if you wanted authenticity because it was mostly samples and stabs which you can still do today...once again, dependant on the era. The memory limitations on that old stuff would just be far too annoying to deal with for modern production.
EDIT: and yeah, Yoshi J isn't even an up and coming producer really, he makes music purely for fun and hasn't been able to make anything due to hardware limitations for a while. His stuff sounds very 97 and really really good which is annoying because I think it comes second to him as he also does lots of drawing (some people get all the talent!). Me and Lotte are working on 95 sounding Dutch stuff, Jason P does very Makina sounding 96 bits. Intentionally or not Spirit Wolf has done a few too. Also another Dutchie called Pookie does old-skool happy hardcore sounding stuff. And none of this is 'old-skool-track-with-upfront-kick-and-bass' kinda stuff...it's all original happy hardcore and so far I've been the only glue getting it all in one place and hooking people up and getting them connected.
Actually, I think that's one of the biggest reasons happy hardcore of that era sounded so
creative and passionate- when people have huge limitations like that, they really have to pour everything they have into it in order to get a sound they love- every sound you heard was carefully thought over and deliberated on. These days, you can whip up a song in a couple minutes, all the programs and presets make it incredibly easy.
Since there is so much open space, people don't really think about what sounds BEST, they clicky-click whatever jumps out at them right away.
I'd definitely agree, I love all the attempts my friends have made to bring happy hardcore back, at the end of the day we're all a similar age and none of us experienced the old skool days but we're huge fans of the 90s sound, we're just kids making it in our bedrooms still. I love what they do but personally for myself I've been more motivated to make something fresh, a HUGE part of my struggle in updating happy hardcore has been making it sound new but without just giving it the typical UK Hardcore treatment which I want to avoid, but it's difficult trying to get the equilibrium between old and fresh at the same time, I think the key isn't to change the instruments like some people think but to change the arrangement, the lyrical content, the way the vocals are sung, where samples are placed and get rid of the cookie-cutter structure hardcore has had for over a decade.
People need to think about their music more, that applies to ALL genres. I started off in music playing guitar and writing lyrics for acoustic rock and I'm thankful I learned the importance of real inspiration early on in the game, writing music that maps a feeling and a scene rather than music that copies something else. You could probably make electro dubstep hardcore sound good if you REALLY did it right. Some people will bang an old rusty oil drum and make a racket, others will make industrial music from it, it's all about imagination as far as I'm concerned, we just don't often see a lot of it in electronic music full stop, let alone hardcore.
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Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
12,837 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 03:00:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dys7:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by SparkzMusic:
Thats the thing, theres nobody producing "happy hardcore" at current. In reality for that specific style it cant really be made with new vst's and software,
There definitely is, trust me on that.
Yeah, I've wondered that. What was the major program they used to make hardcore in those days? I know now everyone uses Cubase
They used Cubase in the 90's too actually.
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Luna-C
Average Member
United Kingdom
222 posts
Joined: Dec, 2004
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 03:11:54
As far as the new equipment versus old goes, I don't think it makes any difference. At least, it hasn't to me, and I have worked on everything since the Atari / S1000 sampler days to right now, where I am almost entirely software.
Its a question of technique and the choice of sounds used, not one of software or hardware.
I agree that limitations can often help when it comes to creativity. I have always required limitations in order to create the music I do, and I have been slow to embrace newer techniques with some aspects of music making because I still believe the first and most important element is making good music, not producing good music. Everyone focuses on production, and forgets to have fun with the actual notes lol. Production is very important, but secondary. At least, IMO, lol.
Anyhow, I am working on new music, Supaset 12. No rip offs. And it is everything I liked about old hardcore. Some of it is like old hardcore, but produced to a higher standard. It is not electro or dubstep, and it is neither modern nor dated. There are breakbeats, 4x4 kicks, and tracks that have both. 145 - 190 via 165 bpm. I am making it like I used to make my music back in the Kniteforce days, following the old rules:-
1. Make it fun
2. Make it fast
3. Steal from everywhere, but copy no one.
4. Understand the rules, use them when needed, but ignore them too.
5. Like what I am making.
Its the best stuff I have made in ages. I am really happy with it. I am certain it absolutely wont fit in with Clubland X-Treme lol. It will probably end up being ignored for the most part...but I haven't had so much fun making music in ages, so I really dont give a ****! Wheeeeeeeee!
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 03:27:59
quote:
Originally posted by Luna-C:
As far as the new equipment versus old goes, I don't think it makes any difference. At least, it hasn't to me, and I have worked on everything since the Atari / S1000 sampler days to right now, where I am almost entirely software.
Its a question of technique and the choice of sounds used, not one of software or hardware.
I agree that limitations can often help when it comes to creativity. I have always required limitations in order to create the music I do, and I have been slow to embrace newer techniques with some aspects of music making because I still believe the first and most important element is making good music, not producing good music. Everyone focuses on production, and forgets to have fun with the actual notes lol. Production is very important, but secondary. At least, IMO, lol.
Anyhow, I am working on new music, Supaset 12. No rip offs. And it is everything I liked about old hardcore. Some of it is like old hardcore, but produced to a higher standard. It is not electro or dubstep, and it is neither modern nor dated. There are breakbeats, 4x4 kicks, and tracks that have both. 145 - 190 via 165 bpm. I am making it like I used to make my music back in the Kniteforce days, following the old rules:-
1. Make it fun
2. Make it fast
3. Steal from everywhere, but copy no one.
4. Understand the rules, use them when needed, but ignore them too.
5. Like what I am making.
Its the best stuff I have made in ages. I am really happy with it. I am certain it absolutely wont fit in with Clubland X-Treme lol. It will probably end up being ignored for the most part...but I haven't had so much fun making music in ages, so I really dont give a ****! Wheeeeeeeee!
Honestly I would love to see 4/4 hardcore get MASSIVE popularity like never seen before but honestly I believe the only kind of hardcore that will rock the nation is breaks. Particularly hardcore breaks and nu rave breaks. A lot of it at the moment is kind of...bad to be honest, ragga tip remix yeah yeah but Need U More by Jakazid and Free Me by...can't remember now but it's something to do with can you feel it honestly shook me...and those were just the beginnings, I think hardcore/rave breaks have much more lasting potential than anything 4/4 and I'm a proper cheesy 4/4 lover. Also the new future jungle and 140 jungle is immensely strong, the last part of the 00s for me has felt like the 80s...if that's the case then I think hardcore breaks and 140 jungle will be our 90s in a year or so.
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Lorenzo.Tweakn
Advanced Member
United States
1,327 posts
Joined: Apr, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 05:54:55
quote:
Originally posted by SparkzMusic:
Thats the thing, theres nobody producing "happy hardcore" at current. In reality for that specific style it cant really be made with new vst's and software,
http://soundcloud.com/lorenzo-tweakn/lorenzo-acevedo-20years-later
http://soundcloud.com/lorenzo-tweakn/lorenzo-acevedo-be-happy-hhc
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[email protected]
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Archefluxx
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,120 posts
Joined: Sep, 2011
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 12:07:58
quote:
Originally posted by Lorenzo.Tweakn:
quote:
Originally posted by SparkzMusic:
Thats the thing, theres nobody producing "happy hardcore" at current. In reality for that specific style it cant really be made with new vst's and software,
http://soundcloud.com/lorenzo-tweakn/lorenzo-acevedo-20years-later
http://soundcloud.com/lorenzo-tweakn/lorenzo-acevedo-be-happy-hhc
Think he means on a professional kind of level, and he's totally right.
__________________________________
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/0KDPkzp05mZsdmkykMqFCt?si=AT5PvWuLTU-jUMEMWuB-PQ SC: http://soundcloud.com/archefluxx YT: http://www.youtube.com/user/afbofficial
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Hard2Get
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
12,837 posts
Joined: Jun, 2001
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 14:08:26
quote:
Honestly I would love to see 4/4 hardcore get MASSIVE popularity like never seen before but honestly I believe the only kind of hardcore that will rock the nation is breaks.
How come? It has become mildly successful within the Hard Dance genres and look what happened to it, can you imagine how much worse it would be if it was much bigger? Plus music gaining that kind of popularity is purely a superficial thing and for that many people to like it it has to be really average (to appeal to the average listener), which would mean more even more watering down and you would end up with an essentially different genre by the time it was acceptible to the general public. Much like what has happened with Dubstep.
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Edited by - Hard2Get on 2011/12/26 14:09:52 |
NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 14:40:21
quote:
Originally posted by Hard2Get:
quote:
Honestly I would love to see 4/4 hardcore get MASSIVE popularity like never seen before but honestly I believe the only kind of hardcore that will rock the nation is breaks.
How come? It has become mildly successful within the Hard Dance genres and look what happened to it, can you imagine how much worse it would be if it was much bigger? Plus music gaining that kind of popularity is purely a superficial thing and for that many people to like it it has to be really average (to appeal to the average listener), which would mean more even more watering down and you would end up with an essentially different genre by the time it was acceptible to the general public. Much like what has happened with Dubstep.
I'm not sure if your "how come?" means "why won't it get massive popularity?" or "why would you want it to get massive popularity". For the first one, I don't think it'll get massive popularity because I think people have heard enough 4/4 music and I'm not sure 4/4 hardcore is at a radio-friendly speed or really offers people much they haven't heard already.
For "why do you want it to be massively popular" I mean cheesy HAPPY hardcore, not dubstep/electro or even upfront 4/4 hardcore. I'm don't care how popular or unpopular they get. The reason being is just because I love it and I want to show it to the whole world, if Happy Hardcore got hugely popular I'm sure the mainstream appeal would damage parts of it but I think we'd hear some interesting things as a result and 2 years on from that when the mainstream appeal is gone and it's history it'd be nice to have loads of records to dig around for a while and think "wow I like what someone has done with it here".
Olly, at a professional level nobody is doing it but we have some tracks which IMO are of a professional standard. The track you mixed out of in the members mix was from 2010 and was about as 1997 as it gets, and then some.
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B-Tek Project
New Member
United Kingdom
31 posts
Joined: Dec, 2011
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 16:17:57
quote:
Originally posted by Luna-C:
As far as the new equipment versus old goes, I don't think it makes any difference. At least, it hasn't to me, and I have worked on everything since the Atari / S1000 sampler days to right now, where I am almost entirely software.
Its a question of technique and the choice of sounds used, not one of software or hardware.
I agree that limitations can often help when it comes to creativity. I have always required limitations in order to create the music I do, and I have been slow to embrace newer techniques with some aspects of music making because I still believe the first and most important element is making good music, not producing good music. Everyone focuses on production, and forgets to have fun with the actual notes lol. Production is very important, but secondary. At least, IMO, lol.
Anyhow, I am working on new music, Supaset 12. No rip offs. And it is everything I liked about old hardcore. Some of it is like old hardcore, but produced to a higher standard. It is not electro or dubstep, and it is neither modern nor dated. There are breakbeats, 4x4 kicks, and tracks that have both. 145 - 190 via 165 bpm. I am making it like I used to make my music back in the Kniteforce days, following the old rules:-
1. Make it fun
2. Make it fast
3. Steal from everywhere, but copy no one.
4. Understand the rules, use them when needed, but ignore them too.
5. Like what I am making.
Its the best stuff I have made in ages. I am really happy with it. I am certain it absolutely wont fit in with Clubland X-Treme lol. It will probably end up being ignored for the most part...but I haven't had so much fun making music in ages, so I really dont give a ****! Wheeeeeeeee!
This fits in perfectly with the idea behind my new site. People tend to forget that music is meant to be fun and enjoyable to listen too and enjoyable to make. The 90's had music nailed as far as I'm concerned, it was fun, interesting, different and energetic. Standards of music has slipped so much in the last decade and not just in hardcore, in almost every type of music from what I can tell.
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jenks
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,698 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
19 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 19:32:39
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
LOL sorry but that's simply not true. In the internet era of facebook and free tunes being handed out left right and centre, label news is a few clicks away, buying records can be done in 30 seconds and they STILL have to constantly urge people to support them and give incentives...and what happens? People would rather support labels like ReBuild, HU, Next Generation, Kniteforce etc. and hunt through the internet to find something worthwhile.
The reason it's called 'support' is because they need it to stay afloat. The bigger labels by comparison, are much more comfortable, because many more people like the stuff they produce. Plus, it feels much cooler for the elitists to support a more obscure label than a more mainstream one.
quote:
If clubs refused to let modern hardcore be played in their venues do you really think people would drive out to fields and warehouses and call up info lines just to hear the current music?
I've no idea, and neither do you.
quote:
Not a chance, the illegal raves with the best turnouts never play upfront hardcore. There are never any upfront illegals because nobody is motivated about the music enough to venture that far.
Prove it. A much more likely explanation, is that there is simply zero incentive to rave in a muddy field when there are regular raves featuring the top upfront hardcore DJ's in much better venues. The scene grew in warehouses and fields out of necessity, ravers of old would have ****ing loved to be able to party in the places we can these days.
quote:
If I want to go to an upfront UK Hardcore rave I take a walk from my house to the station, get on a comfy train, sit back and relax as I'm transported to london, get off the train and walk into a club for under a tenner with nice lighting and facilities that are warm and toilets that are nice and yet I STILL find myself going 'nah, it's not worth it for the music'
So?
quote:
I'm not saying old skool is better than new skool or anything like that, but in the past people would overcome all the obstacles just to get to a rave in a deserted space in the middle of nowhere, all without internet because they loved the music and nothing more. It's as simple as that. Electro hardcore wouldn't last 5 minutes out of the clubs, it'd die before you know it.
Baseless assertion. You seem to have it in your head that old skool ravers are somehow more committed, and love the music more, but you can provide no evidence to back that suggestion up. You're just romanticising the old skool, the way so many elitists do.
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Luna-C
Average Member
United Kingdom
222 posts
Joined: Dec, 2004
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Posted - 2011/12/26 : 21:52:13
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
LOL sorry but that's simply not true. In the internet era of facebook and free tunes being handed out left right and centre, label news is a few clicks away, buying records can be done in 30 seconds and they STILL have to constantly urge people to support them and give incentives...and what happens? People would rather support labels like ReBuild, HU, Next Generation, Kniteforce etc. and hunt through the internet to find something worthwhile.
The reason it's called 'support' is because they need it to stay afloat. The bigger labels by comparison, are much more comfortable, because many more people like the stuff they produce. Plus, it feels much cooler for the elitists to support a more obscure label than a more mainstream one.
I hate to disagree, but I would wager pretty much every label except a handful are "hobby" labels. I know Kniteforce is. I mention it only because you seem to think these labels need support (ie money) to stay afloat. They don't. The money is nice, but there is so little of it that theses labels stay afloat based solely on the willingness of the label owner to keep it going. The bigger labels are far from comfortable - they also survive on extras such as Dj work and events. There is a very simple reason why certain labels release hardly anything any more - there is no point from a financial standpoint. But support is a loose term, perhaps we are talking about encouragement? We all need that lol.
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
If clubs refused to let modern hardcore be played in their venues do you really think people would drive out to fields and warehouses and call up info lines just to hear the current music?
I've no idea, and neither do you.
They definitely would. It has been proven time and time again that lack of availability causes desire for whatever it is that is unavailable. Lack of gold makes gold valuable, and so it goes for pretty much everything from music to women to whatever. If the only place people could hear hardcore was in a field, people would definitely drive there.
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Not a chance, the illegal raves with the best turnouts never play upfront hardcore. There are never any upfront illegals because nobody is motivated about the music enough to venture that far.
Prove it. A much more likely explanation, is that there is simply zero incentive to rave in a muddy field when there are regular raves featuring the top upfront hardcore DJ's in much better venues. The scene grew in warehouses and fields out of necessity, ravers of old would have ****ing loved to be able to party in the places we can these days.
This is an irrelevant supposition. Nothing here can be proven either way, and the central question of whether the music is a big enough incentive ignores too many variables, such as who is putting on the event, and what year are we discussing? The world changes. And no one measures how many people re at an illegal rave. The whole argument is unprovable either way.
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
I'm not saying old skool is better than new skool or anything like that, but in the past people would overcome all the obstacles just to get to a rave in a deserted space in the middle of nowhere, all without internet because they loved the music and nothing more. It's as simple as that. Electro hardcore wouldn't last 5 minutes out of the clubs, it'd die before you know it.
Baseless assertion. You seem to have it in your head that old skool ravers are somehow more committed, and love the music more, but you can provide no evidence to back that suggestion up. You're just romanticising the old skool, the way so many elitists do..
Old skool ravers were 100% more committed, this is not something that can be disputed. How can we know? Because raves had to be sought out - there was no internet and few legal venues. It took effort and commitment to go to a rave back in the day. I know, I was there. That doesn't make the old skool ravers or the old skool raves "better". But it is not elitist to say that being a raver in 1990 took vastly more commitment and effort than it does in 2011. I can be into dubstep without ever leaving my armchair. The most effort I ever need to make is a google and youtube search, and I can find out pretty much everything there is to know about dubstep. In 1990, unless someone physically played you the music or took you to a rave, you would have no idea what a rave or rave music even was. No one wandered into a rave by accident back in the day. You didn't think "shall I go to a trance event, or a hardcore event or a house event tonight?" No, your choice was pub, or disco playing top 40 music. Any other music - hip hop, ska, punk or rave required commitment and effort to be into.
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