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djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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 Posted - 2011/12/10 : 12:00:17
quote:
Originally posted by LoveThaCore:
Allsorts
All very interesting but you're missing the point slightly.
We all have differing ideas on what's good and what isn't, what works and what doesn't etc so these sort of debates are always going to happen. Each to their own and all that. BUT my issue is getting unoriginal, regurgitated shite thrown at me from every direction. I want Hardcore to be original like it used to be, not copying what's popular at the time and whacking an extra 40 BPM on top to make it sound like Hardcore!
I like Dubstep (and did even before it was popular), I also like a lot of Electro - so it's not a case of me being against the genres as such. But i've said before, Hardcore was once it's own genre, had it's own style and identity. Where's that now?
If all these producers who are following the crowd are as genuinely passionate about this 'new' sound as they say they are, why weren't they doing it BEFORE it got popular? I have no problem with people trying something different, but when that different becomes the norm, surely it's time to start looking for the next innovation?
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_Jay_
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
6,868 posts
Joined: Oct, 2011
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Posted - 2011/12/10 : 12:58:01
quote:
Originally posted by LoveThaCore:
The same thing could be said about you guys. Basically you guys are saying Breeze your not allowed to change your style to something new because we don't like it. So really it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Why don't don't you have a dig at Vinylgroover for leaving Hardcore and making Hard Dance shite??? Producers should have the freedom to do what they want.
Basically us guys aren't saying that at all.
"...however it wouldn't kill to throw some tracks..." is basically what we're saying.
Breeze has made and/or been involved in an enormous number of colossal tracks that define the sound in Hardcore that I love. I just feel a little sad that it looks he may never make, or have the inclination to make, tracks like that again.
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LoveThaCore
New Member
Australia
39 posts
Joined: Nov, 2011
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 00:59:45
I'm pretty sure Breeze will make some of the vocal trance hardcore still. Just not as much. There are countless good produces that still make it. Hixxy, Squade, Recon, Mob even seems to be putting out a lot of Vocal stuff of late.
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dj switchback
Senior Member
United Kingdom
363 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 12:18:48
Looking forward to the Breeze and the Hixxy & Re-Con mixes. Hixxy's new productions have been very impressive.
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 15:02:20
quote:
Originally posted by LoveThaCore:
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
quote:
Originally posted by _Jay_:
quote:
Originally posted by deathproof627:
i was reading through Breezes posts last night and some guy told him that he didn't want any electro/dubstep influenced stuff any Breeze responded by saying that this new influence is how hardcore is progressing and how this is what modern hardcore is. If u dont like it then piss off to 2003.
Sources:Breezes facebook, My paraphrasing
Breeze acts like a fcuking prick on facebook. No idea what he's like in real life, and I have a colossal amount of respect for him, musically - but some of the stuff he comes out with, you just think "Come on mate, you must be, what, 40? And you're acting like a defensive little girl."
Yeah it's that 'You don't agree with me therefore you're a hater' nonsense that I see so many DJs and producers coming out with. The word 'hater' is just a way for idiots to deal with criticism they can't take, it makes them feel important in a roundabout way ("wow I'm so popular I have haters as well as fans"). People who seriously make use of the word 'hater' have a severe personality disorder they should probably get checked out.
Breeze has spent most of his time DJing at raves where the only bad criticism he's used to is maybe a few hecklers and some bad record sales, he doesn't understand internet culture and hasn't been a part of it. He needs to understand that it's a different game here and that people WILL criticize you openly, personally I would take that as a godsend but some people refuse to believe they're doing anything that could dissatisfy others so they write them off as 'haters' or 'keyboard warriors'. The funny part is that the internet has gotten a lot, lot kinder in recent years in regards to criticism etc. he wouldn't have stood a chance a few years ago before the days of facebook and twitter, the internet would have destroyed him.
I don't know where you got bad record sales from. Sounds like your making stuff up!!! Actually his label Future World has had numerous number ones on Trackitdown. That's the trouble with people like you. You put shit on all the people that are making music YOU don't like. I spose you don't like Recon, Klubfiller, Styles, Squade as well???
WHO MADE YOU JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER of what hardcore people should listen to Nekoshuffle??? I think your self appointed LOL:)
You're an idiot, listen to what DMS said because he is spot on. I've told you many times in many threads about why this style of hardcore is awful and all you do is pick a moot point from the long posts I write and then tell me some crap about trackitdown sales which don't actually account for all that much.
There's a lot of hardcore I don't like, doesn't mean I think it's bad. But the Electro/Dubstep/Minimal hardcore is bad, as DMS said, there's nothing unique or creative about taking whatever is popular, whacking it up an extra 40 BPM and trying to pass it off as the 'future of hardcore'. I LOVE Bananaman, Force & Styles, Hopscotch, all the really cheesy 1996 happy hardcore on Essential Platinum etc. but if someone tried to tell me it was the future of hardcore I'd say that's stupid because as much as I like it it's far too basic as a genre to really be the future of anything. This has nothing to do with what I do or don't like.
I'm a massive fan of Styles and Squad-E and I have loads of Re-Con tunes thank you very kindly. Last month I spent over 1000 canadian dollars on a trip to fly 4000 miles to Toronto to see Re-Con and Technikore and next March I'll be doing the exact same to see Force & Styles; so be careful what you say when you start throwing accusations around with no factual basis.
You're just an idiot trying to justify your tastes by flinging shit at me and trying to call me a liar; you never respond intelligently to any of my posts and constantly dodge questions I pose, so to be honest I don't think you have a leg to stand on. You are ignorant and completely in denial that the music you like is simply bad and you try to justify this by telling everyone else that they need to 'get with the times'. I was listening to (and enjoying) electro before anyone knew who Deadmau5 was and I was listening to dubstep before Styles released Skydivin'
I don't hold anything against Breeze or anyone for producing dubstepcore or electrocore, I produce as well and I wouldn't like it if someone told me what I could and couldn't make, but at the end of the day the simple fact is that it is not the future of hardcore and to act as though it is will cause more problems for this scene which it really doesn't need. Maybe being from Australia you probably think that everyone listens to hardcore here, let me clarify; a TINY percentage of the UK listens to hardcore. 3 tracks on Kutski's show that airs at 1-3am every friday night when most people are asleep or busy is the most amount of mainstream exposure hardcore gets here. Occassionally, we get a hardcore guest mix, and as you have probably seen; it gets a multi-page thread and almost everyone has a listen.
And you say Vinylgroover made Hard Dance shite, actually since he transferred to the hard dance scene it's just grown and grown and grown. Hard Dance is much bigger than Hardcore right now, I talk to Scott every now and again and he's always doing photoshoots, getting interviewed, working on artist albums, collaborating with massive names and DJing huge parties with massive lineups that draw international crowds, I'm not even a fan of Hard Dance outside of hearing it at raves when it's alongside hardcore, but it's thriving and people love it. Cyberdog practically redesigned half of its clothes, stock and CD selection because Hard Dance has grown so much, you'll never see that happen for hardcore because as I said in the Kutski thread - it's associated with Chavs and the public doesn't want to touch it. Global Gathering got rid of it's hard dance stage for all the harder styles of electronic music just because they don't like the crowd it attracts - which you can blame the arseholes that Hardcore and Drum n Bass attracts.
If the music was good I wouldn't be sat here arguing about it on a friday or saturday night I'd be out there raving to it, but alas it isn't good and that is the thing that you fail to understand. I honestly don't know how I can simplify this any further. There are so many people complaining about the dubsteppy/electro hardcore, many of them have already shown they're intelligent enough to argue their points with reasoned debate and logic and all you do is rush in calling people liars and making personal attacks on them because they don't like what you like. If you like the new sound of hardcore, good, that is honestly a good thing and I'm glad you enjoy it, but don't come in arguing the odds as if you actually know something about the genre because it's evident that you don't know a thing about it and are just trying to justify your tastes because you don't like admitting the fact it is comparitively bad music.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/11 15:06:20 |
Archefluxx
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,120 posts
Joined: Sep, 2011
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 17:43:32
Neko is spot on, I'm afraid
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_Jay_
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
6,868 posts
Joined: Oct, 2011
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 18:27:52
lol fcuking hell that's a lot of text, even for you Neko. I'll read it in a minute.
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jenks
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,698 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
19 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 18:30:18
He really isn't. Music is entirely subjective, to dismiss anything as good or bad is just silly. As much as I hate it, there are people who absolutely love the electro/minimalist style. How original or inventive it is doesn't even come into it.
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Vladel
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,525 posts
Joined: Feb, 2008
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 18:34:02
As i've posted recently on many counts, i've been utterly loving Hixxy - Sora blue but the track itself really makes the point that i want to get across. Hixxy himself said the piano was from an old hard trance track. I think the bass is pretty much an evolution from what we have had since 2005 and there's some twisty stuff in the middle but there's nothing hugely new there and even the synth could have come from a 2007 track. Put it all together and it's a brilliant track and its simplicity sells it for me because it's just a great track to listen to when a lot of modern music (not just hardcore) seems to need a melody that goes against the rest of the tune. It's almost like a lack of continuity and flow is what sells. If you listen to radio 1 at any point of the day it's really tragic. The sad thing is that the style from 96-98 really didn't last that long and while it felt like it was long enough, if you compare it to the 2005+ run for the majority it wasn't long in comparison.
The thing is that creatively the music will always need to change and it's going to be the breeze and styles etc that will lead it and that was why i was so happy when i heard sora blue because it wasn't following the trend.
Right or wrong what those guys into their fart noises will carry on till it fails and it will fail because while you can defend a fast tempo and heavy beat, you can't defend fart noises. Eventually breeze, styles and Al storm will come around but i see it as one of those times when you have to brave what is happening and give them the best message you can WITH YOUR WALLET! I will buy anything i like and i will skip anything Al storm until such time as the music starts to make sense. the major thing is that you can't diss people for their taste because there are people that like fart noises. Gammer can make and sell an album of them :-)
I don't think Clubland Hardcore 8 will go down this route! i think they will be told that it's not clubland and they'll have to listen because if they don't, the album will lose the fans that buy it for the slightly commercial but mostly enjoyable sound it comes out with. It's not HU5 CD1 Dammit!
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NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 18:52:00
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
He really isn't. Music is entirely subjective, to dismiss anything as good or bad is just silly. As much as I hate it, there are people who absolutely love the electro/minimalist style. How original or inventive it is doesn't even come into it.
Music is entirely subjective, agreed. But we have to draw the line somewhere if we're trying to represent a genre, I actually like some speedcore but there is no way I can defend it as music, it's pretty much a 'shock' genre. Think about what makes hardcore passable as music; is it a 4/4 beat at 180bpm? No, the music is the riffs, the melodies, the tune, the vocals, the piano; now look at electro/dubstep-core which removes all those factors and just replaces it with arbitrary noises. Arbitrary noises + 180bpm 4/4 beat does not make good music, if you enjoy it - excellent; I don't have a problem with people enjoying the music, I have a problem with the attitude a select few carry that this music is somehow a step forward when it really isn't.
Take Gammer as an example - people shit on Gammer and give him all kinds of abuse because he experiments with sounds. I don't like his minimal stuff either, but after a couple of tracks he suddenly tries something electro-y, then dubsteppy, then hardstyle, then back to vocal, then something with a dutch house vibe to it. I'll admit, subjectively I think most of those aren't that great, but it's his right to experiment and that's exactly how he treats it - simply as experiments. He's never told us 'This is how it is now, get used to it' he's never tried to tell us that it's the 'future' of the genre, Hardcore has no identity right now and he's just playing around with sounds to see what works. I respect that and I hope that if I was ever in his position that I could do the same.
I don't like dubstep, I don't think dubstep will be the future of anything because the structure of dubstep is far too rigid and the 'wow' factor in the tracks (the drop) will get tiresome very quickly. But, I'm not gonna say every dubstep track is shit, or that people shouldn't listen to it. On the contrary; enjoy it while it's still around, because it probably wont be for very long. If it honestly came to a situation where people proposed dubstep should be banned I would be the first person out on the street with a plackard fighting for its freedom.
tl;dr: the future of dubstep is dubstep, the future of electro is electro - the future of hardcore should be hardcore. Simple as.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/11 18:57:54 |
cruelcore1
Advanced Member
Croatia (Hrvatska)
1,485 posts
Joined: May, 2010
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 19:35:41
quote:
Originally posted by jenks:
He really isn't. Music is entirely subjective, to dismiss anything as good or bad is just silly. As much as I hate it, there are people who absolutely love the electro/minimalist style. How original or inventive it is doesn't even come into it.
I completely agree with u. I know how commercial HTID 1 by Squad-E was, but I still luvd it. 
Haha but you guys can say whatever u wish. People don't change their minds just because of someone else's argument. For them, your music tastes are nothing but delusions. (Same as for most of the old folks any form of an electronic-liking is a delusion.) But funny thing is that they actually buy and mix new stuff, despite their "badness".
Though, I'm not 100% guy to say this, cuz of how I described commercial hardcore minimal drops. There r people who love them so that the entire thing is none of my business. 
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cruelcore1
Advanced Member
Croatia (Hrvatska)
1,485 posts
Joined: May, 2010
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 19:51:46
Sorry if my last comment seemed a bit harsh. It's just that I found more harsh stuff on this site, and why the **** should I suppress all of my anger? A guy insults me and I treat him somewhat like Jesus would (and also like a "defensive little girl"). Suxxxx!
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Music is entirely subjective, agreed. But we have to draw the line somewhere if we're trying to represent a genre, I actually like some speedcore but there is no way I can defend it as music, it's pretty much a 'shock' genre. Think about what makes hardcore passable as music; is it a 4/4 beat at 180bpm? No, the music is the riffs, the melodies, the tune, the vocals, the piano; now look at electro/dubstep-core which removes all those factors and just replaces it with arbitrary noises. Arbitrary noises + 180bpm 4/4 beat does not make good music, if you enjoy it - excellent; I don't have a problem with people enjoying the music, I have a problem with the attitude a select few carry that this music is somehow a step forward when it really isn't.
Take Gammer as an example - people shit on Gammer and give him all kinds of abuse because he experiments with sounds. I don't like his minimal stuff either, but after a couple of tracks he suddenly tries something electro-y, then dubsteppy, then hardstyle, then back to vocal, then something with a dutch house vibe to it. I'll admit, subjectively I think most of those aren't that great, but it's his right to experiment and that's exactly how he treats it - simply as experiments. He's never told us 'This is how it is now, get used to it' he's never tried to tell us that it's the 'future' of the genre, Hardcore has no identity right now and he's just playing around with sounds to see what works. I respect that and I hope that if I was ever in his position that I could do the same.
I don't like dubstep, I don't think dubstep will be the future of anything because the structure of dubstep is far too rigid and the 'wow' factor in the tracks (the drop) will get tiresome very quickly. But, I'm not gonna say every dubstep track is shit, or that people shouldn't listen to it. On the contrary; enjoy it while it's still around, because it probably wont be for very long. If it honestly came to a situation where people proposed dubstep should be banned I would be the first person out on the street with a plackard fighting for its freedom.
tl;dr: the future of dubstep is dubstep, the future of electro is electro - the future of hardcore should be hardcore. Simple as.
And what is Hardcore? What is "original" oldskool Hardcore? Isn't it crazyness and randomness? I heard people complaining it nowadays rlly lacks randomness. And what about piano riffs? Whats is with all the modern "glorious" breakdowns?
And what is Dubstep? That's even MORE randomness.
Riffs aren't Hardcore. They're handsup and trance. Hardcore you're referring to is not "original" hardcore. So that some parts of ur theory are contrary.
IMO we shouldn't judge what "real" and "good" hardcore is and what its not. It progresses just as every other genre. Combining 2 genres is also not bad. Why the hell would it be bad? And taking a commercial style? Why not, if u like it! A track is commercial only if it was made with commercial motives.
There's NO good or bad music. There's only highly-inspired music, lowly-inspired music, and commercial music.
Neko, there will always be melodic HC u love. Don't worry about it. If u don't like electrocore, don't listen to it. I prefer melodic just as u do, but I also love electrocore and I think its an awesome sub-genre.
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Edited by - cruelcore1 on 2011/12/11 20:02:58 |
Warnman
Advanced Member
Germany
2,677 posts
Joined: Jun, 2010
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 20:13:02
quote:
Originally posted by cruelcore1:
And what is Hardcore? What is "original" oldskool Hardcore?
...
Riffs aren't Hardcore. They're handsup and trance. Hardcore you're referring to is not "original" hardcore. So that some parts of ur theory are contrary.
My definition of good and original Hardcore is a mixture of all the best electronic music genres have to offer. Trancy uplifting melodies, very fast music between Hardtrance/Psytrance and Gabba, cheesy vocals like very emotional love songs/ballads in the Pop-genre, liability to either be slightly childish or naughty and sugar spice and everything nice.
Any opposing elements make Hardcore sound ridicolous tmo. I can stand the Elektro and even a little bit of the Dubstep influenced stuff (if it doesn't replace the exploding melody), but Minimal is an absolut no-go.
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Edited by - Warnman on 2011/12/11 20:13:38 |
NekoShuffle
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,480 posts
Joined: Nov, 2009
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 20:17:47
quote:
Originally posted by cruelcore1:
Sorry if my last comment seemed a bit harsh. It's just that I found more harsh stuff on this site, and why the **** should I suppress all of my anger? A guy insults me and I treat him somewhat like Jesus would (and also like a "defensive little girl"). Suxxxx!
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Music is entirely subjective, agreed. But we have to draw the line somewhere if we're trying to represent a genre, I actually like some speedcore but there is no way I can defend it as music, it's pretty much a 'shock' genre. Think about what makes hardcore passable as music; is it a 4/4 beat at 180bpm? No, the music is the riffs, the melodies, the tune, the vocals, the piano; now look at electro/dubstep-core which removes all those factors and just replaces it with arbitrary noises. Arbitrary noises + 180bpm 4/4 beat does not make good music, if you enjoy it - excellent; I don't have a problem with people enjoying the music, I have a problem with the attitude a select few carry that this music is somehow a step forward when it really isn't.
Take Gammer as an example - people shit on Gammer and give him all kinds of abuse because he experiments with sounds. I don't like his minimal stuff either, but after a couple of tracks he suddenly tries something electro-y, then dubsteppy, then hardstyle, then back to vocal, then something with a dutch house vibe to it. I'll admit, subjectively I think most of those aren't that great, but it's his right to experiment and that's exactly how he treats it - simply as experiments. He's never told us 'This is how it is now, get used to it' he's never tried to tell us that it's the 'future' of the genre, Hardcore has no identity right now and he's just playing around with sounds to see what works. I respect that and I hope that if I was ever in his position that I could do the same.
I don't like dubstep, I don't think dubstep will be the future of anything because the structure of dubstep is far too rigid and the 'wow' factor in the tracks (the drop) will get tiresome very quickly. But, I'm not gonna say every dubstep track is shit, or that people shouldn't listen to it. On the contrary; enjoy it while it's still around, because it probably wont be for very long. If it honestly came to a situation where people proposed dubstep should be banned I would be the first person out on the street with a plackard fighting for its freedom.
tl;dr: the future of dubstep is dubstep, the future of electro is electro - the future of hardcore should be hardcore. Simple as.
And what is Hardcore? What is "original" oldskool Hardcore? Isn't it crazyness and randomness? I heard people complaining it nowadays rlly lacks randomness. And what about piano riffs? Whats is with all the modern "glorious" breakdowns?
And what is Dubstep? That's even MORE randomness.
Riffs aren't Hardcore. They're handsup and trance. Hardcore you're referring to is not "original" hardcore. So that some parts of ur theory are contrary.
IMO we shouldn't judge what "real" and "good" hardcore is and what its not. It progresses just as every other genre. Combining 2 genres is also not bad. Why the hell would it be bad? And taking a commercial style? Why not, if u like it! A track is commercial only if it was made with commercial motives.
There's NO good or bad music. There's only highly-inspired music, lowly-inspired music, and commercial music.
Neko, there will always be melodic HC u love. Don't worry about it. If u don't like electrocore, don't listen to it. I prefer melodic just as u do, but I also love electrocore and I think its an awesome sub-genre.
Nobody called you a defenseive little girl, Jay was talking about DJ Breeze acting like a Defensive Little Girl online, as far as I'm aware nobody on this site has anything against you. I think you need to re-read things a bit slowly and try to take the time to understand what people are saying, maybe it's the language barrier or something but you're raising points in your posts which I already answered. You're also wrong about old skool hardcore, old skool hardcore was never 'random'. And a 'riff' has nothing to do with trance or hands up, riffs were around before there was electronic music. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from... Please re-read and come back.
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Edited by - NekoShuffle on 2011/12/11 20:19:51 |
cruelcore1
Advanced Member
Croatia (Hrvatska)
1,485 posts
Joined: May, 2010
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Posted - 2011/12/11 : 20:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by NekoShuffle:
Nobody called you a defenseive little girl, Jay was talking about DJ Breeze acting like a Defensive Little Girl online, as far as I'm aware nobody on this site has anything against you. I think you need to re-read things a bit slowly and try to take the time to understand what people are saying, maybe it's the language barrier or something but you're raising points in your posts which I already answered. You're also wrong about old skool hardcore, old skool hardcore was never 'random'. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this from... Please re-read and come back.
I knew somebody would refer to that. Thats true, nobody called me tht way. Its just tht I consider myself a "defensive little girl" (I implied to it the 1st time I mentioned it) which is not a good habit.
I read a thing about lack of randomness on this site once. I was refering to it in my last comment
I've just re-read your posts. I understood that you completely tolerate and support minimal, dubstepy and electroey HC. However, you say it's bad music. Also, that dubstep and electro are bad music too.
Did I misunderstand or miss something?
Haven't you heard of sort of music that evolved of classical tradition where there were no music keys or proper harmony? They were just piano keys, ALL piano keys, played in a way to express a dark feeling. It was considered a pure peace of art. Also, see Jazz. Normal Jazz styles don't have music keys.
So why are they different from Dubstep? Just because they use music notes? That's also randomness. And who says Dubstep can't be melodic? It just that too low amount of people tried making melodic dubstep. If I werent so lazy, I'd make some already.
If the thing "future of Hardcore should be Hardcore" was used in practice, then we'd never move from those old breakdeat stuff. They'd be no Gabber neither. Because that was the 1st HC out there.
EDIT: Modern music scene shows what future is. Its hard minimal. But hot chicks are most important after all. Eventhough melodic styles might drastically grow, it'll take much time to take over the rave scene.
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Edited by - cruelcore1 on 2011/12/11 20:51:48 |
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